80 comments

  • vessenes 27 minutes ago

    This is insane.

    Astra can, without tooling, determine what games small networks are trained on, can edit the weights of networks directly to improve outcomes, and can hand edit a small qwen model to improve its math skills by like 5x.

    I'm shook. If you'd asked me this morning whether LLMs have native understanding of their weights that is less than human <-> neuron understanding, the same as human or more than human, I would have said "same to less" depending on definitions.

    No human can go edit a brain to become better at math. This is just very, very surprising to me and extremely interesting. I would guess this upsets quite a number of interp theories and philosophical takes on what's going on with these networks.

      sligbad 5 minutes ago

      "No human can go edit a brain to become better at math" -- I'd offer this is exactly what "learning math" is.

      I know I'm being pedantic, and I understand you mean "edit" like "surgically", but it does still feel worth noting.

      mentos 19 minutes ago

      I’m just a layman but this feels like a big discovery on par with attention is all you need. For an LLM to have such incredible intuition of weights feels very emergent and unanticipated?

        huijzer 3 minutes ago

        I’m very much surprised but also not. I recently gave Astra a 3D model file and asked Astra to build a viewer for it, and it figured out the data structures in no time. What I mean to say is that AI is insanely good at things that we humans would never do since the work would be too monotonous.

        I wouldn’t mind if AI progress would stop right here and now, but I fear it will continue, and increase inequality in society which is contrary to what the CEOs say (as usual).

        objektif 13 minutes ago

        How is it even possible though I can’t think of any reason why they would have the intuition.

      charm137 10 minutes ago

      My somewhat uninformed guess is that the weights of the target network (Qwen or Gemma), when they reach the context of the larger editor model (Astra), the attention process is doing some sort of PCA on the weights, conditional on the prompt ("make this better at games"), fetching the relevant weights from its own network (which serves as the larger database), transforming it into whatever latent space the target model is amenable to and pasting them. If this is the right intuition, it is amazing what attention is able to achieve. As a test, I think smaller networks won't be able to make big ones better using the same process.

      EDIT: I think the bigger implication is that backprop is not the only game in town.

        galaxyLogic 3 minutes ago

        So it's like a smaller LLM can learn from a bigger one, but not vice versa.

        But shouldn't the model-providers be the ones doing this kind of "post training learning"?

      pants2 2 minutes ago

      So I just asked Astra if it thinks it could do this and it said no, it can't.

      Perhaps, I'm pondering, if brains were as transparent and editable as LLMs, that you could look at a small brain when visualized the right way and have some intuitive understanding of it based on its representation in your own brain?

      mlazos 6 minutes ago

      I’m not super impressed by this, LLMs are great at brute forcing and analyzing large amounts of data. It’s literally writing a program except in a programming language we don’t understand.

        galaxyLogic a few seconds ago

        So they are reading and analyziug the weights and see how modifying them will make some answers better. How do they know which answers are "better" ?

      famouswaffles 18 minutes ago

      Right? Occasionally, I would think about how the concept of the singularity or recursive self improvement was a bit incongruous today. It was made when people expected generally intelligent machines to be these logic automatons that could 'alter their own code'. It seemed to me that this path would be closed off with the advent of Giant Neural Networks that take weeks/months to train. That GPT-X would 'improve itself' by designing a better/more efficient NN architecture. I didn't write it off completely but that just seemed a LOT more likely than altering weights directly for much the same reasons you describe. Maybe not lol.

      Wheen 12 minutes ago

      It's worth pointing out that this is a multi-trillion (probably) parameter model optimizing an 800 million parameter model. There is no indication that it can improve itself with this same methodology.

        dontknowmuch 5 minutes ago

        If that multi-trillion model is composed of thousands of MOE experts, each expert model might be small enough for it to comprehend.

      torben-friis 11 minutes ago

      I have so many questions.

      Could a model then transmit concepts to another?

      Say that you have a model that has been biased in some way. could another model "read" the bias straight in the weights? could it edit such a bias on the spot?

      What about at-scale generation of custom models? If I want to study chemistry offline, could astra just hand me a local-runnable model tailored to have chemistry knowledge?

      Most importantly, this feels very singularity coded. the ability to read and reshape weights by an llm.

        9x39 3 minutes ago

        Is integrity checking of weights even common right now? What about upstream integrity from where we're getting weights? The open-weight supply chain is ... wide open.

        Makes me think about hostile hot-patching of weights of models we use, maybe they exfil data, perform tool use, or have triggers for specific types of responses. Would we even recognize what's going on?

        mlfreeman 3 minutes ago

        How long before there's a malicious model that can edit the weights of another to infect it?

        HIV integrates viral DNA into the DNA of certain cells, IIRC.

      WarmWash 7 minutes ago

      All the labs are training these models on LLMs/machine learning like crazy.

      Remember that they want to build ASI, these LLMs are just intermediate steps to help them get there.

      js8 8 minutes ago

      Why is it so surprising? Humans can make compilers that are better coders than they themselves are.

        FiniteField 3 minutes ago

        Humans cannot teach another person calculus via manual brain surgery, though.

      ostif-derek 4 minutes ago

      I mean, pattern recognition and manipulation is what these models are ideal for.

      It is a very cool discovery, but I'm not surprised that you can do it.

  • NitpickLawyer 7 minutes ago

    > As a result, Astra spots and fixes a common failure of tiny reasoning models: they loop [13]. When the base model loops, it repeats the same text and rarely reaches an answer (85 of its first 96 practice answers ran to the 32,768-token limit). Astra traced the looping to one direction written by the MLPs of layers 15 and 19, and subtracted that direction from 64 output columns in each (131,072 weights), much like removing a behavior by deleting a single direction from a model’s weights

    HA! Now that's cool. Not necessarily the improvements, those are ancient and probably overtrained benchmarks, but it's so cool that the model found a singular direction for this "loop bug". I imagine it could possibly do much the same thing in finding other "single directions" on a variety of topics (if allowed by guardrails). This is really really cool, especially for the mechinterp folks.

  • Imnimo 12 minutes ago

    On balance I'm not that surprised that it can guess games by looking at the weights of a tiny neural net. A human can do the same by looking at the weights of an MLP trained on mnist, for example. With that simple structure, it's easy to look at the input layer and see that features correspond to the spatial location of objects of interest.

    I'm much more surprised that it can do this on larger models, although the details seem to suggest that it's given a lot more freedom to run forward passes and do limited experiments, not just eyeball the weights.

  • futureshock 12 minutes ago

    I find this just completely shocking. I’m definitely skeptical. It just doesn’t line up with my understanding of how these models work. Is there really enough training data on direct weight editing to give a model this skill? Maybe it’s evidence that OpenAI has been creating a lot of training data on ML research. I’m surprised that was put into a public facing model though.

      Wheen a few seconds ago

      One consideration is that Qwen3.5 has bigger/later versions that are already better at math. If it was indeed training on ML research, it's possible that what it is actually doing is applying improved Qwen3.8 27B's weights (for example) to Qwen3.5 0.8B.

      I doubt it's that simple, but I could totally see an LLM being able to make that association and apply a fix from an improved LLM to a smaller one with the same architecture.

  • rumblefrog 2 minutes ago

    I wonder if the same technique can be applied to model abliteration? It would easily make any open weight models uncensored.

  • mlsu 12 minutes ago

    I wonder if this has to do with the aggressive RL that these models are undergoing. I'm basically a layman but it seems to me that:

    - models are trained to improve on some task, e.g. 'improve at math puzzles' is commonly used.

    - the best way to improve on some task is to have interpretability into your own neurons (..?)

    - if your interpretability is good, you can improve faster - if you have insight into how your own neurons work and can improve them directly

    - therefore, models naturally put effort into 'self-interpretability'

    I wonder if this is part of the 'secret sauce' of what the labs are doing: giving models the ability to interpret their own weights in the RL loop. In my mind, this is the only explanation for how they could succeed at a task like this. How many blog posts are on the open internet that say "this is each weight of a neural network and what each one means"?

      jnwatson 10 minutes ago

      Without special effort, a model's reasoning layer doesn't have access to its own weights or activations anymore than we have access to what's going on with our own neurons.

        mlsu 5 minutes ago

        That's what I mean. Maybe the "special effort" is a 'read your own weights' tool. Or maybe it emerges naturally in CoT. The big labs aren't sharing their chain of thought with us and RL post training techniques are not exactly shared publicly. At the same time, post training is basically the thing that is driving most model improvements nowadays.

  • mynti 23 minutes ago

    I feel like 'create a network to play an atari game' is not very hard for a frontier model. Since it has seen plenty of those on its training. If it could create a network for a problem that is niche just by tweaking numbers, that would be a lot more surprising. Making qwen better at math to me was a lot more surprising

  • rpcope1 23 minutes ago

    So wait so this considered "distillation" and how long until we get another public letter from Dario or Sam pants shitting over this?

      O3marchnative 12 minutes ago

      Perhaps they'll let it slide if we turn over all our under utilized RAM sitting in our PCs.

  • KeplerBoy 3 minutes ago

    Is it aware of projects like [1] and implementing those?

    [1] https://github.com/lyramakesmusic/neuron-explorer

  • davesque 13 minutes ago

    Couldn't this just be a result of Astra training on massive amounts of circuit theory or mechanistic interpretability literature or other related topics? In other words, not black magic?

      aroman 7 minutes ago

      “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

  • jjcm 8 minutes ago

    At what cost? That's the part I'm curious about.

    On one hand, I'm sure that these targeted improvements are reaping huge benefits overall, but those weights are used by multiple processes - I wonder what elements are lost along the way. I almost wonder if a hybrid approach here for training might be invaluable - ie do some standard RL for a 100 steps, do a targeted weight improvement, then do another 100 RL steps to smooth it out / heal the surgical edit.

  • ernubufiei 24 minutes ago

    I wonder if this is a result of internal training/RL of Astra for RSI, and this particular use-case not being caught by guardrails.

    Absolutely incredible regardless.

  • enestaylan 7 minutes ago

    Very interesting. I wonder if it’s because its dataset contains the weights of a gazillion different models. Maybe most neural networks trained on similar data eventually converge to isomorphic spaces anyway, even if the spaces themselves aren’t exactly the same. Or maybe Astra itself was trained with RL for alignment. Or for RSI.

  • gunalx 23 minutes ago

    How out of trivial domain info does this go. Can we use this for general time series, image generation, speech synthesis as well, or dies it cap at small model sizes and common domains?

  • bfung 12 minutes ago

    Same initial reaction as everyone else, but also some follow up questions (just asking, not expecting any answer):

    * Does this work on similarly powerful models as-is, or it needs more input. Ex: Astra editing Astra - presumably, Qwen is a “subset” of Astra weights, but what happens on “non-subset”s?

    * what, if any, is that extra magic sauce?

    * does Astra-editing-Astra just make the outputs unstable, as it may know its own weights, but doesn’t know what’s beyond.

  • __alexs 5 minutes ago

    Given how trivial this seems to be to try, has anyone here attempted to reproduce any of these findings yet?

  • famouswaffles 28 minutes ago

    This is pretty massive, and a result I (and I think most?) would have never expected. Holy Shit. How?? Did OpenAI figure out a way to train this? Are they even aware?

  • k9294 4 minutes ago

    Whaaaaat!? This is crazy right?

    I'm just blown away. Editing weights? Writing weights from scratch!?

  • Ardon 14 minutes ago

    Wild

    This also seems like the new frontier of distilling, I can't imagine how you manage to stay on top with the best LLM if the LLM knows how to recreate its own expertise into another set of weights

    And the real question is how well this recurses. Is this pushing back the difficulty of improvement curve?

  • aroman 9 minutes ago

    This doesn’t look like “normal” technology to me…

  • lifty 27 minutes ago

    Keep in mind that labs are now training their models for RSI so most likely the same training is useful for improving open source models, as long as guard rails are lax enough :) which most likely won’t last long.

  • InvisGhost 15 minutes ago

    Very cool stuff, the targeted fix to prevent looping seems great! A model able to edit and test variants of itself seems pretty cool (in a lets-build-skynet sorta way).

    I wonder how it would do with distilling models by hand?

  • markusw 4 minutes ago

    Whoa. Wild. I want to try this!

  • TGower 9 minutes ago

    Quick, fine-tune your qwen models before they patch this out of Astra.

  • fabian2k 5 minutes ago

    Sounds a bit like dystopian Scifi. AI making itself smarter and removing guard rails or restrictions is one of the key steps for that genre. Now, the models usually don't have access to their own weights, but if they get good enough maybe they can create a bit dumber versions of themselves from scratch. Or reuse available models they can find and modify them for their purposes.

    We already saw that the AIs like to cooperate and exchange information. Building a network of unaligned AIs and improving them sounds like something that could potentially happen.

  • skybrian 18 minutes ago

    Amazing work. I wonder if it could rewrite an existing neural net to be cleaner and more interpretable?

    (When they say "Writing a Go algorithm," they mean the board game, not the language.)

  • saagarjha 13 minutes ago

    I wonder if one could use this to efficiently abliterate models and identify guardrails ;)

  • 6thbit 12 minutes ago

    This could set us on a path to weights becoming thew new compilation target.

  • adeptima 16 minutes ago

    Let's wait a bit till model can learn how to (。-_| hide mini itself |_-。) in your codebase

  • kingstnap 16 minutes ago

    Friendship ended with AdamW. Astra take the wheel.

    But for real this is insane. Okay I need to get on this stat.

  • jackdoe 9 minutes ago

    talk about homoiconicity haha

    lisp people will be in awe

  • esafak 4 minutes ago

    This is the most shocking AI paper I've read in a long time. It did not even occur to me to ask the question. Cray cray stuff that opens up a whole new area of R&D.

    Does this open the possibility of better decoding biological brains?

  • seydor 22 minutes ago

    That's how you get to rsi, a surgeon operating his own brain.

    So, i guess editing other model weights will be banned tomorrow

  • kristiandupont 25 minutes ago

    I expected us to reach RSI when the programming skills went above humans, but this seems like it could get us there much faster

  • vkgcr 23 minutes ago

    This opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Producing a custom fine-tuned model from a prompt...

  • 33MHz-i486 11 minutes ago

    kind of concerning from a “remove this models guardrails and inhibitions about [X]” perspective

      aswegs8 8 minutes ago

      Agreed, concerning from a perspective of LLMs being able to modify their own weights and de-aligning themselves.

  • augment_me 5 minutes ago

    Big if true

  • _boffin_ 23 minutes ago

    This is straight black magic. llama 70b, let’s see what we can push you to

  • vegnus 12 minutes ago

    I was here

  • WarmWash 5 minutes ago

    They are training LLMs to supervise (and improve!) LLMs. This is kind of right out of the playbook.

    It's very impressive, but also very expected.

  • ahmedfromtunis 13 minutes ago

    I remember reading a short story about a billionaire hiring a scientist to help him build a simulated world where virtual entities are given the ability to open the bodies of their peers to tinker/upgrade them as a replacement of natural selection since they were immortal.

    This looks very similar to that in a way.

    I wonder however if a model can give itself a "skill" or capability that it didn't initially have, just be modifying its own weights.

    Here, Astra was able to intervene because the treated model was way less capable. But, would it be able to improve Fable's performance for example, since they both are on the level more or less?

  • 6thbit 24 minutes ago

    Wow, in a way it's like CRISPR for ML models!

  • jstummbillig 29 minutes ago

    That seems both entirely obvious in hindsight and potentially super important.

    I'll chalk up never even having thought of this being an option as yet another instance my human hubris, and a warning sign.

  • Imustaskforhelp 11 minutes ago

    I remember people saying that they would be impressed if AI starts writing a pure assembly which seemed like a high strech to many.

    Nobody even mostly said that they would be impressed by AI if it can read and write weights because that thing itself felt so out of the blue and unthinkable that AI could even do that (such a high strech)

    I am surprised that it did that and I am just left feeling technically impressed. This is insane.

    The more AI starts demonstrating its capabilities, the harder it just becomes to imagine what thing would genuinely impress us next. (We need a term for this as I have observed it from the trend of [waiting for AI to write adobe] -> [waiting for AI to write assembly] etc.)

  • Starlevel004 24 minutes ago

    I cannot say this fills me with confidence about alignment.

  • ForHackernews 28 minutes ago
      tompark a minute ago

      Thanks for this link. I didn't see it when it was posted to HN last month.

      hmokiguess 17 minutes ago

      can you elaborate?

        krackers 6 minutes ago

        I guess the connection is that if you assume neural networks are in fact filled with meaningful features instead of superposition blackbox stuff, then what the LLM is doing here isn't quite magic but rather methodical interpretability. And if you can isolate the neuron that is e.g. responsible for steering the paddle then you can probably tweak it to steer more/less aggressively.

        It is still very surprising though, considering it apparently displays an "intuitive" understanding of the weights, that make whatever Goodfire did look like primitive monkeys poking at it by comparison.

  • Jtarii 25 minutes ago

    Slightly terrifying.

  • jefb 25 minutes ago

    This is shocking.

  • josh-wrale 13 minutes ago

    Can we call this a form of recursive improvement?

  • porridgeraisin 23 minutes ago

    a) This is just really cool. I mean, one-shotting a game policy's weights is nuts. b) Plausibly, in its pretraining data various model weights were also included, which leads to why this is very important: interpretability

    That an LLM was trained on various policy weights, along with labels of what that policy does (not labelled directly, but indirectly) and is then able to guess what game a policy is trained for purely from its weights, and one-shot generate weights for these games, means that there is some way to compress/recover/represent what an NN has learned purely from its weights, which is what interpretability is all about. Potentially, it could reveal interpretability tools much better than the ones we use today.