For anyone else who can never remember how much a hectare is and think "420 football fields" sounds more like some weed joke than an area: 300 hectares = 3 sq km
/ ~1.16 sq miles
If it's found they really did skip the required steps then I hope there is actual action about it.
It's also odd to me we seem to find the need to build AI DCs near population centers, in forests, and/or by/with new fossil fuel plants. Does it really matter so desperately if it takes your AI query an extra 10 ms to go to the middle of nowhere and we have to wait to build renewable or nuclear power to scale it for what we gain in return of that choice?
Nuclear power plants take a very long time to build, it can be 7-10 years before you even begin construction due to all the permits, politics and planning.
As for scaling massive amounts of solar/wind... that's exactly what China is doing to power their infrastructure buildouts.
7-10 years to scale it right is better than immediately doing it wrong in my mind! Or what China is doing if they really just can't wait to scale (though my understanding is China is still increasing the total amount of power generated via coal even though the percentage of power generated via coal is going down - so not quite the full step needed).
So Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%
I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
The real story is a debate about whether they followed the right procedures. Google says they did. The chair of a Finnish Nature Conservation Association says maybe they didn't:
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
So they want to halt construction to determine if any permitting approval wasn't done appropriately? This is getting so much press that I assumed they had actual evidence that this was illegal, not just someone's suspicion and request to investigate.
> I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made? The problem isn't "Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%" but that Google "began bulldozing large swaths of forest before the required environmental review of the full plan was complete", and then on top of that, Google seems to have gone beyond just rushing through it, and also cleared forest "that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation"
Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about.
Correction: The article says someone is requesting that they halt construction so they can determine if any laws were broken because some people think they may have not waited appropriately for all environmental reviews to clear, but as far as I can tell nobody has determined if anything illegal was done yet.
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
It is implied to be illegal despite Google claiming it followed all laws etc:
> Public reports cited by the LVV indicate that around 300 hectares of Finnish forest, roughly 420 football fields, had already been cleared before the project's environmental impact could be properly assessed.
Presumably with the environmental assessment being a prerequisite for a permit or something
This comment was made ~15 minutes after the article posted, the only other comment at the time was in agreement, and all but 1 of the first 11 comments in the 30 minutes it took to get to the front page were in support.
I'd say you thought right HN is generally against climate change but I'm not sure where you got the idea little to no-one cares.
This is unpopular in the current climate of hysteria, but it's worth reminding ourselves: data centers are probably one of the least polluting industrial sites imaginable. That's not to say it's nothing, but contrast it with, say, a refinery. Or mineral processing. Or basically any other type of industrial activity on which modern civilization relies.
No, and it also won't matter what they feel about it, when Google and the contractor just ignores what's marked as protected and clears it anyway:
> Halmeenpää said satellite imagery shows that areas that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation.
It would be good to use funds that way but it's not gonna get the protected species back. We need some teeth to actually stop these things from happening
For anyone else who can never remember how much a hectare is and think "420 football fields" sounds more like some weed joke than an area: 300 hectares = 3 sq km / ~1.16 sq miles
If it's found they really did skip the required steps then I hope there is actual action about it.
It's also odd to me we seem to find the need to build AI DCs near population centers, in forests, and/or by/with new fossil fuel plants. Does it really matter so desperately if it takes your AI query an extra 10 ms to go to the middle of nowhere and we have to wait to build renewable or nuclear power to scale it for what we gain in return of that choice?
Nuclear power plants take a very long time to build, it can be 7-10 years before you even begin construction due to all the permits, politics and planning.
As for scaling massive amounts of solar/wind... that's exactly what China is doing to power their infrastructure buildouts.
7-10 years to scale it right is better than immediately doing it wrong in my mind! Or what China is doing if they really just can't wait to scale (though my understanding is China is still increasing the total amount of power generated via coal even though the percentage of power generated via coal is going down - so not quite the full step needed).
Bbbbbut CHYNA
First comparison result I found was the UN's Food and Agricultural Organization
They say Finland has over 22 million hectares of forested land https://fra-data.fao.org/assessments/fra/latest/FIN/home/ove...
So Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%
I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
The real story is a debate about whether they followed the right procedures. Google says they did. The chair of a Finnish Nature Conservation Association says maybe they didn't:
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
So they want to halt construction to determine if any permitting approval wasn't done appropriately? This is getting so much press that I assumed they had actual evidence that this was illegal, not just someone's suspicion and request to investigate.
The first think I did when I saw the number is to google how much trees finland has.
Estimated 33 trillion trees. I think they will do fine with 250k less trees.
No. They broke the law. Thats the point. Go into a walmart, lift a chewing gum and make the point Walmart has a few billion more.
> I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made? The problem isn't "Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%" but that Google "began bulldozing large swaths of forest before the required environmental review of the full plan was complete", and then on top of that, Google seems to have gone beyond just rushing through it, and also cleared forest "that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation"
Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about.
we should just re-wild continental Europe, its cool seeing all the happy animals eating each other.
I have friends who do this regularly for income.
Correction: Illegally cleared 300 hectares
Correction: The article says someone is requesting that they halt construction so they can determine if any laws were broken because some people think they may have not waited appropriately for all environmental reviews to clear, but as far as I can tell nobody has determined if anything illegal was done yet.
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
Illegal?
It is implied to be illegal despite Google claiming it followed all laws etc:
> Public reports cited by the LVV indicate that around 300 hectares of Finnish forest, roughly 420 football fields, had already been cleared before the project's environmental impact could be properly assessed.
Presumably with the environmental assessment being a prerequisite for a permit or something
And yet no one who be held responsible. It's a joke.
Sad.
Because no one did anything illegal, or even unethical.
And they're doing something valuable to society by developing undeveloped land.
Move fast and break things everything they touch. The negative sentiment towards data centres remains a mystery to me /s
That’s a motto from Facebook, not Google
Google's is "do evil, but confuse everyone's notion of truth sufficiently so that no one can tell that it's evil"
Thought everyone here was against climate change. Yet this will only make it worse.
Thanks to the increased usage of data centers, here we have widespread deforestation to clear the way to building more homes for AI agents.
And little to no-one cares.
> here we have widespread deforestation
300 hectares of clearing against 22.5 million hectares of total forest.
It's nothing. Not "widespread"
This comment was made ~15 minutes after the article posted, the only other comment at the time was in agreement, and all but 1 of the first 11 comments in the 30 minutes it took to get to the front page were in support.
I'd say you thought right HN is generally against climate change but I'm not sure where you got the idea little to no-one cares.
Animals are all cool with all the different pollution that data centers brings? Vibrations, noise, as well as climate?
Some perspective is important, I think.
This is unpopular in the current climate of hysteria, but it's worth reminding ourselves: data centers are probably one of the least polluting industrial sites imaginable. That's not to say it's nothing, but contrast it with, say, a refinery. Or mineral processing. Or basically any other type of industrial activity on which modern civilization relies.
They hum. That's about it.
How about compared to the forest that was there before, I wonder?
No, and it also won't matter what they feel about it, when Google and the contractor just ignores what's marked as protected and clears it anyway:
> Halmeenpää said satellite imagery shows that areas that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation.
Well, at that point fine them properly and use the proceeds to establish new wildlife sanctuary.
Unless of course the judicial system has been corrupted but that's surely a bit of a stretch no?
It would be good to use funds that way but it's not gonna get the protected species back. We need some teeth to actually stop these things from happening
Given the AI boosters don’t care much about humans I don’t think they consider other forms of organic life too important