Introducing the concept of the "scratchpost" to nature lovers.
If im small and hunted, why does it help me to know predators nearby who do not hunt me- and to take predators chasing me, to them, so they get eaten? Because survival means, if i have a scratchpost, i can get rid of them.
So what is a village of humans- not allowed to hunt me near houses, with driving cars- other then a predator scratchpost. Bonuspoints if the disney-hystrics install dart guns to sedate the predators.
Also look at those boars and deer. They are massive. Are you really sure, a creature whose culture changes on a yearly basis, will not try to attack a weak human, compared to a wild boar, when hunger bites in the winter?
Ah yes the nice EU experiment where it uses the Netherlands for as their experimentation grounds. The goal of having more wild life is lofty, but it makes no sense in the netherlands . For the people who don't know, there weren't wild wolves up to 2015.
There now are many and they've attacked people, horses and wiped out complete herds of sheep. The amount of sheep they are killing is increasing exponentially. (not using exponentially lightly here.)
Proponents during the 2015-2020 era said that it would never come to this situation, alas.
Rhetoric questions by proponents as seen on national news website[1]:
> We hebben ook weleens last van de mens, die schieten we toch ook niet af?
> -- Aaldrik Pot
Translated:
"We also have issues with people every now and then, were not shooting them are we?"
Why are sheep so important to protect versus wolves? They are both animals that existed in nature and can continue to exist in nature.
Why should we be morally inclined to try and "save" sheep at the expense of wolves. Sheep and goats and deer survived throughout history without the help of humans they will continue to exist, with or without the help of humans against wolves.
Maybe they're saying that there are better ways to coexist with animals that were here before us, before we razed their forests, than, you know, genocide
That’s not true. Wolves are incredibly smart animals and will find and exploit weak points in otherwise expensive fencing systems. They also jump surprisingly high. Moreover, once they manage to cross a fence they do not kill to feed. Instead, they slaughter entire herds of sheep for the sport of it. I personally think wolves are incredible animals, but their sudden reintroduction in the Netherlands feels ill thought out.
Hmm. Well, not sure about this. If you put yourself in the shoes of the wolf, sheep are abundant, free, delicious everything- their "economy" is exclusively food-bound. Not sure what kind of fences would keep them out, and how expensive would they be- and how long they would last.
The wolves seemingly made it back into the Netherlands on their own:
In a paper published in 2016, “The first proof of the recent presence of Wolves in the Netherlands,” authors wrote:
“In light of the expansion of wolves from the Polish border to the northwest of Germany and the sightings in Denmark, the appearance of the wolf in the Netherlands was no surprise to most experts. In March 2015, this expectation was fulfilled when, after generations without resident wolves, a single wolf wandered through the Dutch provinces of Drenthe and Groningen in broad daylight. From 7 to 10 March 2015, the Netherlands witnessed the comeback of an iconic species.”
I have zero insight into why Wageningen University & Research (WUR) in the Netherlands concluded in a study that "the Netherlands are legally required to contribute between 23 and 56 wolf packs" (Lost in translation? - perhaps "can support and shouldn't cull below these numbers" ?)
Dutch version of the WUR page says basically the same thing: "Uit het onderzoeksrapport blijkt dat Nederland juridisch gezien een bijdrage aan de wolvenpopulatie moet leveren van 23 tot 56 roedels. " -> the study concludes that the Netherlands has to contribute to the wolf population from 23 to 56 wolf packs.
It seems that this is part of a european "habitats directive" for managing biodiversity within Europe. This directive (according to the above paper) determined there need to be around 500 wolf packs across Europe to keep wolves at a stable level without too much inbreeding. The Netherlands was found to be able to "contribute" 23 to 56 wolf packs in this sense.
Ah, cheers for that - I'm on the other side of the planet and was happy to do a bit of light digging on the situation but limited by not having much grasp of the written language.
Population control, preventing overgrazing, stuff like that. However, the Netherlands (unlike most countries) is basically a big farm with practically no wild nature, so humans manage that stuff already. Maybe I'm exaggerating a tad, but I don't get what benefit wolves have in the Netherlands specifically.
It's not just the Netherlands, this is happening in Italy as well. Part of it is just the natural consequence of people having abandoned the countryside and mountains for the cities. But we certainly forgot what it means to not be the only apex predator around- we used to be able to roam around without a fear in the world like we owned the fucking place (we did). It's nice to have a wild ecosystem around but we probably forgot what it means to have around beings that are... unaligned with us.
yes for the love of god would someone please make sure the country remains a safe, boring holiday park / dairy farm. will someone think of all that poor livestock / the children!!1
Well I guess we differ there then, I do like not having to carry a rifle or sprays when i walk outside (we are not allowed). I also like livestock and kids not having to fear a predator that we drove to the outskirts.
I do wonder where you live in the Netherlands and if you just find it convenient to talk about the rural parts without having to face the consequences.
Wolves generally don't attack people, though, do they?
There are no recent (last half century) documented cases of wolves killing people in Europe as far as I know. The few times people have been bitten by wolves they've been feeding them or doing other stupid stuff.
Sure... It's a developed productive high tech country with agricultural exports leaving Russia in the dust despite 400 times smaller land size, but let's condemn it because it's "safe"
Also ask the farmers, fishers, ASML employees, the police dealing with gang killings and Netherlands being the biggest exporter of ecstasy and European gateway for coke how it's a "holiday park";)
NL has the biggest port in Europe, they get to be the biggest traffic channel for illegal goods. The only one who could've changed that would've been the one to eestablish the country there.
Across European Plain entire native wildlife down to pigeons and rats had been killed and/or consumed at some point because of wars and famines. Entire current wildlife has been reintroduced.
Introducing the concept of the "scratchpost" to nature lovers. If im small and hunted, why does it help me to know predators nearby who do not hunt me- and to take predators chasing me, to them, so they get eaten? Because survival means, if i have a scratchpost, i can get rid of them.
So what is a village of humans- not allowed to hunt me near houses, with driving cars- other then a predator scratchpost. Bonuspoints if the disney-hystrics install dart guns to sedate the predators.
Also look at those boars and deer. They are massive. Are you really sure, a creature whose culture changes on a yearly basis, will not try to attack a weak human, compared to a wild boar, when hunger bites in the winter?
for those who don't speak Dutch: we haven't had wolves in a long time.
now that they're back, eg. wild boar are seen congegating in groups of 50-60 animals, for herd safety. something they never did before.
Edit: this linked, translated article has more info https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2635314-wolf-maakt-zwi...
Ah yes the nice EU experiment where it uses the Netherlands for as their experimentation grounds. The goal of having more wild life is lofty, but it makes no sense in the netherlands . For the people who don't know, there weren't wild wolves up to 2015. There now are many and they've attacked people, horses and wiped out complete herds of sheep. The amount of sheep they are killing is increasing exponentially. (not using exponentially lightly here.) Proponents during the 2015-2020 era said that it would never come to this situation, alas.
Rhetoric questions by proponents as seen on national news website[1]:
> We hebben ook weleens last van de mens, die schieten we toch ook niet af?
> -- Aaldrik Pot
Translated:
"We also have issues with people every now and then, were not shooting them are we?"
[1]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2245512-waarom-willen-we-eigenlijk-wi...
Oh no, the poor sheep!
Why are sheep so important to protect versus wolves? They are both animals that existed in nature and can continue to exist in nature.
Why should we be morally inclined to try and "save" sheep at the expense of wolves. Sheep and goats and deer survived throughout history without the help of humans they will continue to exist, with or without the help of humans against wolves.
Everyone wants wolves except the people who have to actually live with them.
I'm not sure the wolves actually want to live with those people either but no one is suggesting to eradicate those people.
Maybe they're saying that there are better ways to coexist with animals that were here before us, before we razed their forests, than, you know, genocide
Primarily because sheep owners refuse to install good fences.
That’s not true. Wolves are incredibly smart animals and will find and exploit weak points in otherwise expensive fencing systems. They also jump surprisingly high. Moreover, once they manage to cross a fence they do not kill to feed. Instead, they slaughter entire herds of sheep for the sport of it. I personally think wolves are incredible animals, but their sudden reintroduction in the Netherlands feels ill thought out.
Hmm. Well, not sure about this. If you put yourself in the shoes of the wolf, sheep are abundant, free, delicious everything- their "economy" is exclusively food-bound. Not sure what kind of fences would keep them out, and how expensive would they be- and how long they would last.
The wolves seemingly made it back into the Netherlands on their own:
~ https://wolf.org/wow/europe/netherlands/Wolf numbers are now reportedly at 131 split across roughly 14 packs (April 2026): https://nltimes.nl/2026/04/11/dutch-wolf-population-growing-...
I have zero insight into why Wageningen University & Research (WUR) in the Netherlands concluded in a study that "the Netherlands are legally required to contribute between 23 and 56 wolf packs" (Lost in translation? - perhaps "can support and shouldn't cull below these numbers" ?)
~ https://www.wur.nl/en/news/ecological-and-legal-framework-wo...
Shame they can't swim, it would be good to see them reintroduced to the UK.
Dutch version of the WUR page says basically the same thing: "Uit het onderzoeksrapport blijkt dat Nederland juridisch gezien een bijdrage aan de wolvenpopulatie moet leveren van 23 tot 56 roedels. " -> the study concludes that the Netherlands has to contribute to the wolf population from 23 to 56 wolf packs.
Reading further:
https://edepot.wur.nl/690748
It seems that this is part of a european "habitats directive" for managing biodiversity within Europe. This directive (according to the above paper) determined there need to be around 500 wolf packs across Europe to keep wolves at a stable level without too much inbreeding. The Netherlands was found to be able to "contribute" 23 to 56 wolf packs in this sense.
Ah, cheers for that - I'm on the other side of the planet and was happy to do a bit of light digging on the situation but limited by not having much grasp of the written language.
If those were wild sheep, and the wolves came there on their own like the other comments said, isn't that just nature working as intended?
If those were private sheep, shouldn't they be better guarded?
As a livestock owner not in the Netherlands, yes, people should guard their stock.
That's somewhat distinct from going further beyond their boundaries to wipe out threats not directly on their land.
Surely there are benefits to this. What are they? Could you provide a steel man of the opposition, please?
Population control, preventing overgrazing, stuff like that. However, the Netherlands (unlike most countries) is basically a big farm with practically no wild nature, so humans manage that stuff already. Maybe I'm exaggerating a tad, but I don't get what benefit wolves have in the Netherlands specifically.
It's not just the Netherlands, this is happening in Italy as well. Part of it is just the natural consequence of people having abandoned the countryside and mountains for the cities. But we certainly forgot what it means to not be the only apex predator around- we used to be able to roam around without a fear in the world like we owned the fucking place (we did). It's nice to have a wild ecosystem around but we probably forgot what it means to have around beings that are... unaligned with us.
Speaking as a non urban northern Australian .. I'm guessing that's very much a European "we"?
Here we're still surrounded by wild ecosystems and unaligned others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA3SuHtCWo0
yes for the love of god would someone please make sure the country remains a safe, boring holiday park / dairy farm. will someone think of all that poor livestock / the children!!1
Well I guess we differ there then, I do like not having to carry a rifle or sprays when i walk outside (we are not allowed). I also like livestock and kids not having to fear a predator that we drove to the outskirts.
I do wonder where you live in the Netherlands and if you just find it convenient to talk about the rural parts without having to face the consequences.
Wolves generally don't attack people, though, do they?
There are no recent (last half century) documented cases of wolves killing people in Europe as far as I know. The few times people have been bitten by wolves they've been feeding them or doing other stupid stuff.
This is everything wrong with the netherlands. The over the top complaining of the “farmers” (factory operator would be more accurate).
Wolves stay away from humans, there have been zero human deaths by wolves. The whole anti wolf movement is just propaganda by the “farmers”.
"safe and boring holiday park" sounds like a sentence for a country.
> sentence for a country
Sure... It's a developed productive high tech country with agricultural exports leaving Russia in the dust despite 400 times smaller land size, but let's condemn it because it's "safe"
Also ask the farmers, fishers, ASML employees, the police dealing with gang killings and Netherlands being the biggest exporter of ecstasy and European gateway for coke how it's a "holiday park";)
NL has the biggest port in Europe, they get to be the biggest traffic channel for illegal goods. The only one who could've changed that would've been the one to eestablish the country there.
there is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Pena...
Disneyland with the Death Penalty" is a 4,500-word article about Singapore written by William Gibson. It wad his first major piece of non-fiction.
Beep beep! We have detected your mild criticism of the EU and have applied the necessary downvotes. Have a nice day!
Across European Plain entire native wildlife down to pigeons and rats had been killed and/or consumed at some point because of wars and famines. Entire current wildlife has been reintroduced.