Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
I don't mind folding. I think it's cool, and a nice way to get a useful space. But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands. This is even wider before unfolding.
Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I want smaller phones. The width of the iPhone 4 was nearly perfect imo. If they would take modern display technology with approximately that width and expand it to 16:9, I think it would kill, even if it were relatively underpowered compared to the modern top of the line.
Because for a lot (most?) people their iPhone is their primary and only personal computer. I also want a smaller phone. I bet Apple designers would love to sell you a smaller phone. They've certainly tried with my beloved and retired iPhone mini and the same size but thinner iPhone air. But the market keeps rejecting it because it's not just a portable companion to some other computer, it is the computer. If you're doing all your work on it then you need more real estate. Aging populations across the globe probably need more screen real estate also for bigger text.
My need for this new iPhone is driven by my declining vision. Twenty years ago, I had no problem with my first iPhone. Five years ago, I started to get acquainted with some of the visual accommodation measures in iOS. I do still use my (physically larger than I would like) iPhone 16 Pro Max, which I bought for the biggest screen.
I'd love to do my stuff on my laptop or desktop, but smartphones are de facto The Computer these days. So I'll probably buy an iPhone Duo after I sell a kidney for financing.
All that said, today's Apple presentation left me gobsmacked at the technology they've developed. I was born before civilian jet transports were in service, with all that implies for a long personal view of tech dev. The tech feels to me like a cut&paste from 2076.
Camera blocks take internal volume. Smaller phones have less internal volume to spend - while still having to pack all the non-negotiables like the modem and the SoC into it. Something's got to give. And no one want that something to be the battery life going down to 6 hours.
Volume constraints are bad enough for "normal" models. "Minis" have it way worse.
Same, I look longingly at the Samsung Flip and I'd buy one in a heartbeat if only it had the camera system from the Ultra. I'll even pay the Ultra price+extra for the foldable function.
But right now it's in a space where you're paying extra for the fact that it's a foldable, but it feels....budget in its specs? Like...how does that work?
As my eyesight is getting worse I do end up appreciating bigger phones. Even though I miss how smaller phones felt in my hand, it's just hard to see small text on it and that's even though I don't use my phone all that much since I have a kindle for reading and a computer for everything else.
I'm honestly curious about the "market keeps rejecting it" part. Yes, they sold far fewer units than the other models....but did they really not make money? I have made variations on this comment many many times. I completely buy that the opinions about phone form factor and features expressed on HN/reddit/online, and my own idiosyncratic preferences probably even more so, represent somewhat of a niche, and that your median phone consumer isn't interested in what we/I want. But the phone market seems like it's so large that it should be able to support a lot of niches! A tenth of a percent of the total market (~1,300 million in 2023 according to [0], 0.1% of which would be 1.3 million phones) should be totally viable as a business! I get that, maybe for Apple there is opportunity cost. Having more product lines adds overhead, and if the profit margin on those extra product lines isn't enough higher than the main lines to justify that overhead, they kill it. But why doesn't some smaller company (so yes, this mostly applies to Android) try to steal that fractional market share? I simply don't understand why it doesn't work to the point that now, when the market is so much larger than it was in the past, we have so much less hardware diversity.
Why does the Vision Pro exist then? What is that if not a niche? What about the iPad Mini or for that matter the Mac Mini, which if not for the recent AI craze would have been cut in the next few years for sure.
Apple can absolutely do niche products. Just not this one I guess.
I'm sure they made money. But that's not the right question to ask, in my opinion. The right question is did they make as much or more than their internal rate of return (IRR)? Perhaps the smaller iPhones (I had one) do not so they cut the product line. Or maybe they over-purchased some components and figured they could make a phone or two out of them.
Like many other HNers, I don't quite understand the appeal of not having their own computer, or even a VPS setup they can remote info for more structured work. But then I remember the famous Dropbox comment where one user had qualms, and perhaps looking outside our bubble can be worth it.
Apparently a lot of people don't even own a proper computer nowadays, be it a PC or a laptop, it's all just phones/tablets. In fact I know a university professor teaching CS and he told me that obviously not everyone, but a growing population of students starts the CS course without knowing how to use a mouse. They all have laptops, they know how to use a keyboard and a touchpad, but unless they are gamers they probably have never used a mouse.
I really don't think this is just for people who don't have personal computers. I do think this is for people who don't want to carry additional separate devices with them in order to access the bigger-screen experiences. There are a couple gimmicks based on the fold as well.
I for one would love to have my phone turn into a tablet while I'm charging my car. Saves me from having to bring the iPad separately, which can't fit in my pocket. Would eliminate a step from that routine.
Also would love to always have that capability on me in the case where I couldn't have foreseen a need for the bigger screen. Being randomly out with friends and able to spontaneously just show them something in a way they can actually see would be nice.
And why does it need to be wider when folded for that? The competition showed that a narrow folding phone works quite well if you want to have access to a bigger screen without a different device
Apple explained during the event why the square aspect ratio was not for them, but basically it doesn't conform to content well. You supposedly get less black bars with this approach.
To go on a different tangent, I want a round Apple Watch. I know it's not the most efficient use of space, but dangit I don't want the weird little (but constantly-growing) square! If I have to have something on my wrist all day, I want it to look nice and not like a brick.
One day the stockpiles of iPhone 13 minis will deplete to the point where making new products in that form factor is economically viable.
Until then, off to eBay we go. There are more than enough sitting around completely unused. You aren't missing out on much with 5 iPhone generations these days.
Yep I'm keeping my 12 mini until it fails. It's absolutely the biggest phone I would ever want. I'd prefer one a bit smaller, actually, as I still cannot reach all points on the screen one-handed, at least not without changing my grip which risks dropping it.
As an average height woman with average hands, I want
1) an Apple + Levi's collaboration to put iPad Mini sized pockets in women's jeans
2) a phone slightly smaller than the SE so I can reach the furthest corner with my thumb
I really deeply wish they had attempted a profile that was 64mm wide folded and double unfolded. Height is less important.
The whole advantage of having any screen at all when folded is something quick to access and *one handable*. Just looking at the Duo, it appears too wide for that by a large amount.
If I’m forced to two hand the thing I’ll just get a phablet: no folding mechanism, no unfolding step before using properly, no gigantic price hike (guessing).
Are you left handed? The rearranging of the UI to provide navigation on the right side of the 5.4” screen seems like it was made for this exact purpose.
I was an iPhone 13 mini user for the last few years. I would buy a refurbished one off Amazon whenever my current one broke. I really prefer the smaller screen size.
Recently, I broke my phone again and my wife happened to have a larger iPhone laying around unused (through some accident of e-commerce). I felt weird buying a new phone when we had a perfectly good one laying around, so I decided to give it a shot.
I don't watch any video on my phone and most of my screentime is Kindle and Safari. My screentime is only like 2-3hrs per day. And yet, I still found myself chronically running out of batteries on the 13 mini. I actually now would prefer to keep my new annoyingly large 16e just to not have the battery anxiety.
(A hidden assumption in the above is that larger screens make more room for battery.)
I gather that for many people, their smartphone is their only computing device. Doesn't have much appeal for me, but if that was the case, I could see that nudging people towards bigger devices, even if it makes them less practical as phones you carry around / try to grasp with one hand.
>A lot of people who are "mobile-only" prefer larger phones.
And a lot of people who are not prefer smaller ones.
>I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone. So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have.
Not in the slightest. I've got a Galaxy A52, a large-ish phone for its time, and I can use it quite easily with one hand. I can't readily think of the small-hands equivalent of Shaq to compose a snarky "it's you" retort, and I'm sure it's not just you, but plenty people around you, with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
To do what? I usually hold it with my left and, and one-finger (right-hand index finger) to type / scroll / select / etc. I guess I never "got" the phone model properly or something. My daughters type way faster on their phones, I can't do thumb typing (how do you hit those letters?!?), plus my thumbs get too sore too fast (decades on the edge of carpal tunnel) and/or cramp up.
I was timed at 140+ wpm in high school and online tests / etc have hit close to 200 wpm on a Qwerty. So I CAN touch-type and do it well - and keyboard + mouse is my goto jam. My favorite phone (alas, discontinued way too soon) was the Photon Q (work gave us phones way back) with slide-out physical keyboard.
I "use" an S21, but even just entering my 4-digit pin is awkward with my left thumb - is there some other way to hold it? I can't even imagine trying it with my right.. My thumbs just cramp up..
Mobile-only is a larger segment and growing. "ipad kids" are at the age where they are "iphone teens". And it's also the segment of people who care most about phones.
Apple made smaller phones, but they don't sell. They don't sell when they are nice phones, but smaller, and they don't sell when they are cheap phones and smaller.
Tech people are like car people in that they don't really appreciate that their preferences are niche. Wanting a smaller phone is akin to wanting a smaller car
> with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
According to the US Army, the average length of the male thumb: 2.75 in; for women it's 2.49. So we can assume the actual population averages are probably a bit lower.
That means the average iphone is larger than the average male thumb, by a reasonable amount, and it has been for quite a number of generations.
Personally, my thumb is as wide as my iphone, but practically, the way I have to hold it one-handed means that I can only reach half of the screen (technically, the bottom quadrant, so 25% of the overall screen area). I'd need another 1" or so to reach the entire width of the screen with a single hand, and idk 2"+ to navigate the entire screen one handed.
The disconnect probably comes from what it means to "use" a phone one-handed. I mean to be able to hold it in one hand and touch anywhere on the screen and perform any action. Which limits phone size to around 2.25"x4.50", or so to account for a average hand to hit 95% of surface area while holding it. You might mean, just be able to type, or just be able to scroll, which does change things.
> Apple made smaller phones, but they don't sell. They don't sell when they are nice phones, but smaller, and they don't sell when they are cheap phones and smaller.
They funny thing is that the sales numbers were only terrible compared to other iPhones. IIRC it was something like 3% of the iPhone market at the time of discontinuation. Not a big seller for Apple, certainly, but there were times when the Mini made the top ten list for smartphones in general.
I use my iPhone SE with one hand all the time, and have small-ish hands. Being able to use a phone with one hand is a fairly basic accessibility feature, not a niche ask
I'm not Shaq and I also have this complaint. Moved recently from an iPhone 13 mini which I could easily use with one hand to a iPhone 17 Pro which I can not use with one hand.
Can confirm that I am not Shaq, but the 4S was the last phone I could use entirely one-handed (i.e. my thumb had full reach of the screen whilst my pinkie finger sat under the bottom of the phone, cradling it), and the 13 mini was the last functional size where I could reach at least part of the top of the screen with my thumb.
For the Duo to make sense at all, it basically has to fold out into a screen which is big enough that (quite often, at least) you don't feel obliged to bring along a second, larger device anyway, or to wait until you get home or back to the office to "do real computer". That means that hitting a large-enough unfolded size and a suitable unfolded aspect ratio had to be Priority 1.
Nobody bought the hp veer. Small phones stopped being valuable when phones got good enough to be the only screen a layman would see in a single day. It's now a game of 'movie theater in your pocket.' For better or for worse.
Even Samsung offers their 'smaller than a normal phone unfolds to a normal phone' as secondary to the flagship fold. The Flip, to me, is almost marketed as a kid's phone for your teenager.
I think the iPhone 3G was peak iPhone design. It felt good to hold and was small. Later small models hand sharper edges and didn’t feel as good in the hand.
The Duo’s folded size has the same screen size as the iPhone mini, so they did go on the smaller size, rather than trying to unfold a Pro Max. It remains to be seen how the aspect ratio impacts one-handed use.
I'd also add that the mobile gaming market on iPhone is the largest individual gaming competitor, at least by the dollars, and bigger screen probably enhances play experiences that can be had on mobile.
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Others wrote complicated or bs jokes, here is my SIMPLE tip:
It has to change otherwise people would not buy new. Size can not change randomly so it has 2 ways: decreasing and later it becomes an iwatch, and tablet becomes a phone: this is stupid because harder to increase price.
So increase it is. If you do not like it, use a watch+earpiece as a phone.
I like bigger phones. Being over 50, my eyesight is crap and I need a bigger screen. Yeah, I miss one handed operation, but I already accepted that loss years ago. This will be the year I finally switch to apple though(18 pro max, most likely). Bye bye Pixel.
It’s crazy that the reason we can’t have a comfortable-to-hold one is that a product that only sells 5 or 10 million units a year isn’t worth their time.
The phone that grabs most attention always wins. Consumers don't do multi-year procurement processes unlike government agencies selecting a device - they literally gravitate towards bright light and pick up the device on the demo stand. So there's always going to be an arms race of more bigger and ever more glittery phones. That is, until a massive disruption like a flip-phone-to-smartphone transition comes and all those obnoxious peacocks gets instantly wiped out and doves come filling in the void.
One of the reasons I plan on purchasing the iPhone Duo is actually because it has a smaller outer screen size than any of the other iPhones. Agreed that it is wider, but I think it can still be used one handed for most people
People act like bigger screens and no headphone jack is some conspiracy. It’s a competitive market. Small phones exist. Headphone jacks exist. They’re obscure because they don’t sell well, because that’s not what most people want.
It’s frustrating when you have an uncommon desire for a mass market product, I get it. But the answer to “why do they” is pretty obvious if you can understand that you’re not representative.
I also have huge hands, but a few years ago started to develop a persistent thumb sprain due “reaching” with it across my phone. This is problem that would not have happened if my phone was the size they used to be.
While I agree on screen size, Apple does give a good amount of thought into application side of things - screen-layout fall into either the iPad like layout or single-column one of a regular phone. This is a bit easier for App developers. Also force-upgrade of OS is also better for those targeting iOS compared to the Android world.
For me it's fitting the damn thing in my pocket. And unfortunately, width is the main limiter there, making this far WORSE than any other, despite the smaller screen. I can't imagine what this thing would do to your jeans. Apple needs to sell tiny man satchels with this thing.
It's probably a good idea to reduce phone computing to a minimum. Also the larger phone will likely damage your vision to need glasses eventually but there are other ergonomic factors at play. Do you want to hold your phone with two hands? Doesn't it get tiring for wrists to hold the phone in the position? I personally reduced phone usage but am still using a SE2022 which is a small phone. For reading I got a e ink reader and Im very happy with that.
The problem is people don't buy small phones. ASUS' Zenfone 9 and 10 were, in my opinion, basically perfect; small, someting I can actually hold in my non-athletic hands, but they didn't sell well at all, and ASUS abandoned the small phone market entirely with the Zenfone 11 Ultra.
Agree. I miss the mini. My girlfriend still has hers and is reluctant to upgrade for the inflation in size that happens every generation. Pretty soon we'll all look stupid with tablet-sized phones hanging from our necks by a lanyard.
>Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Wait until you get old enough to have to put readers on to use your devices like most older people do. And while I am yelling at the kids on my lawn, let me add every UI/UX person at apple - the idiotic and unnecessary choices they make for the sake of "cool design" infuriate me on a daily basis.
Presumably they are a trillion dollar company because they know the precise size of phones that will sell to the most people. Hacker News is full of the 100 people (me included!) that love small phones but the general public LOVES their gigantic horrible loud phones :)
We are talking about how wide the phone is when folded. The company doesn’t know yet what exactly the market wants here, given it’s a new form factor for the apple audience
> But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands.
Are you a woman by any chance? I am currently typing this one handed on an iPhone 17 pro (not the pro max) and don’t consider my hands to be particularly large, for a man, but my wife has to two hand her android which is roughly the same size
Keep in mind the dimensions of the iPhone 1 were based on the most comfortable shape and size they could come up with. They weren’t targeting women specifically.
They released a number of small iphones over the years, and those always failed to reach meaningful sales numbers. Stated vs revealed preference I guess? People keep picking the larger model, so the models keep getting larger
I don't follow iphone products, but if it's anything like android this is because they tend to be the lower end models and are missing the features that people really want (mainly a better camera/lens setup). The top of the line models are ALWAYS the bigger phones and if your going for something budget, then you're better off with the Chinese brands for value.
High quality camera lenses take space. That alone starts to dictate the size of the phone. Add in the desire for all day battery life, and we start talking more volume. And the fastest chips take more power, so again more battery. The best way to justify the increased size is with a bigger screen and now you’re stuck with a larger phone.
Or a smaller phone that is more expensive to produce. In which case, it won’t sell well regardless.
It’s easy to see how we got to this point of large phones, but it is not very clear how someone like Apple can make a significantly smaller phone and keep customers happy.
As you mentioned, other vendors probably will have better luck.
Faster chips absolutely don't have to take more power. Apple's fastest chips tend to be some of their most power-efficient. It's sustained workload that takes power, and the faster chips just have a higher performance budget.
If small high-end models would sell, they’d be sold. It’s possible for a company to have a blind spot for a market segment, but not for an entire competitive market over many years.
I think it's because the people who want the smaller phone don't just want the smaller phone to the exclusion of everything else.
Some want a flagship model, some want a mid range, some entry level... all in small form factors and they won't compromise in order to settle for the one small model that's available.
Be serious. 88% of buyers chose something they don’t want? Apple is saying, “actually we hate money, so we’re not going to make a model that people want to buy”?
Why is it so hard for people to accept that maybe their preference isn’t the common one?
I was listening to the Accidental Tech Podcast last week and Marco said that the iPhone Air has lower penetration, after 1 year, than EACH of the 12 mini and 13 mini _currently_ have. Among a tech audience.
We just had to replace a family 13 mini and it sucks to have to go with a huge modern phone. Personally, I'd also prefer a mini if it had the best cameras.
I know the general consensus is that the mini was cancelled for (relatively) low sales, but I wonder if that was due in part to the release of the SE? I got the SE 2 not because it was cheaper, but because it was smaller. At the time I was on a 2-3 year upgrade cycle, so when the 12 mini was released a couple of months later, I thought "cool, I'll upgrade to the 14 mini when it's released." Of course the mini was canceled after the 13, so I snatched up the 13 and will hold on to it until it crumbles in my hand.
Right, because it scratches some nostalgia thing that people have obtained osmotically. Nobody actually wants a replaceable battery that makes their phone vastly thicker and harder to waterproof, nobody wants phones that randomly catch fire because their OOPLMXC brand battery from amazon wasn’t up to snuff, nobody wants to be carrying a pocket full of extra batteries to swap all day. Devices with field replaceable batteries just sucked a lot more than people don’t remember. As much as people clamor online about how they want these things, given the option they will shy away from it because it doesn’t match the fantasy that’s been created about “what has been taken from us”.
I wish I could choose even thicker to get the Pro Max's battery life but with the Pro's ability to be held comfortably. You practically need two hands to take a screenshot with the Pro Max
The people at Microsoft who made the Surface Duo must be feeling pretty weird seeing this. The name, the aspect ratio, the way the UI works, the gestures for setting up split-screen, the "use it as a tiny laptop" mode... It's all things they pioneered.
Not that that's a bad thing. I absolutely loved the Surface Duo, it was my favorite phone until it stopped working correctly, and I hope other Android manufacturers take note of this, not just Samsung. It's just wild to see how similar this new Duo is to the original Duo.
In a completely clean room environment where a designer had never seen a folding phone, but had all the context of the iPhone and everything Apple had done, they would develop almost exactly the same design and features.
Designers have also been exploring the concept of foldable devices for literal decades, well before any reached the market. I have an industrial design and technology degree, we did a project in 2005 where we explored the designs around this, looking at the UI, the physical interaction, everything. My design had a similar aspect ratio and size, as I am sure half the student did my year and every other year they ran the project. (the iPhone Duo is about thousand times better than my design though!)
Thats not to say the Microsoft designers didn't do an incredible job, they did, but they were building on decades of design ideation from those that had experimented before them.
I find that story hard to believe. Your industrial design class designed folding iPhones 2 years before anyone had even seen the first iPhone?
Sounds like a leap. That said, at the time, the most popular phone in the world was a folding phone, the Motorola Razr.
Microsoft also had Windows XP Tablets [1] and also WinCE/PocketPC many years before.
While the Duo is more subtle for some changes, it might show us the "new" Apple where the innovation comes from fine-tuning and getting a mature product to the market.
At least from their presentation, it looks like they sat on the fence and looked at pretty much any good or bad thing that happened during the past years.
Seeing some reviews on the Samsung Fold for example, mentioned the speakers feeling weird as the audio orientation is fixed to the speakers location. Those little details make a difference.
I really hope modern Apple would go back to the details and nuances.
> the "new" Apple where the innovation comes from fine-tuning
That's actually the old Apple. Before the iPhone (and after Jobs' return) it was their standard operation procedure: the iMac was a refined workstation, the AirPort was a refined WiFi router, the Time Machine was a refined NAS, the iPod was a refined MP3 player...
Even after the iPad, they mostly cranked out middling stuff like the airPods, all the way to the Vision. They would take whatever good idea was floating around the hardware market, give it a careful polish, and sell it at twice the price. And there is nothing wrong with that - constantly chasing revolutions is risky (see the Vision).
The difference here is Microsoft didn't have to take the hardware and pivot a new OS onto it at the last minute.
Remember... the Duo was supposed to be a cursed Windows 10-esque device. They brought on Movial to do a pivot to Android, then bought out the porting team in early 2024 to keep working on what they should have released in preparation for the Duo 2 (which is what they actually NEEDED to sell as an Android device at the time, but flopped in doing so).
I returned mine in late 2023. It wasn't the best experience and I was missing out on things like NFC dearly.
I think the Duo looks great. And from the few hands on video I have seen I think the Apple presentation actually doesn't do it justice. There is no crease at all! [1]
On the note on this year's keynote. I can't be the only one who feels the whole vibe of the keynote changed. This isn't Tim Cook style keynote and John Ternus wasted no time to try and changed a few things already. I can't wait for John to further shake things up at Apple. But everything so far, all the small minor details suggest they are in the right direction.
It's so close to the "her" wallet thing that the main character pulls out to look at photos.
It's just too big, and too metal.
The form factor is good. I hope things move this direction.
More broadly, it's interesting that the movie has a beautiful future aesthetic that influenced tech most in the recent years. The muted colors with natural materials mixed with ubiquitous tech that was in the background of a human in a humane world where people mostly walk places. I feel like the AI company aesthetic barrowed a lot from that movie. Right down to their office furniture.
Now we just need to make a phone OS to put something like that on that isn't locked down. Forget the year of desktop linux. I am waiting for the year of phone linux. Android doesn't count.
I am 75, and have a ton of computer gear. I can imagine myself as an old man later in life, not wanting to do any programming, and just wanting a single digital device like a future version of this product. Let’s see what Apple has available in 10 years.
i've been hearing this critique of new apple products for about two decades now and inevitably:
- apple's product "does the same thing" as [device sold at 25% of the cost]
AND
- apple's product "does the thing" at a level of polish that's in an entirely different league from every competitor.
siri is the great exception here. jesus christ what a piece of shit
You sound like ESR ranting about how Apple was doomed by Android back when the iPhone came out. He would rant and rant every time about how there was no conceivable way that Apple could survive. Somehow, Apple has managed to survive by the skin of it's teeth.../s
We can do this now, but I don't think the user experience makes it worth it compared to casting. Bandwidth limitations require lower frame rates and responsiveness, which is fine for video but bad for interactive apps (most phones are native 120+hz + VRR_. But re-encoding video is (processor & battery life) expensive and probably lower quality than the original stream.
People who do this a lot probably just use a DV adapter (maybe it just works with USB-C, but I haven't tried it) for native apps, or casting for streaming video.
Right — I would have hoped a while ago already that we transcend past the notion of an endpoint device. A tablet, a laptop, or a phone should all just be entry points to access my one OS instance.
You could think this a bit further still, and have all kinds of devices offer an interface to nearby endpoints with a display or controls, establishing connectivity automatically.
I find Dex to be decent enough. Its biggest limitation is that it runs Android apps, but for doing stuff in a browser on a big screen and multitasking with some other apps that are tolerable to use that way it's pretty good.
I take it this is a joke? I am in my 50s and don’t see myself staring at screens for too long, let alone coding.
Edit: I don’t know of anyone 75 still coding outside of retired professors here and there. I am not trying to be an ageist. I just don’t think I will be physically capable when I am 75.
>"I am in my 50s and don’t see myself staring at screens for too long, let alone coding."
I am 65 and still enjoy software development (not coding in particular) but decomposing business idea into software architecture and functionality. Decomposing is the part I really enjoy, the rest is a necessity but with AI that rest takes way less of my time than it used to.
I do not work for someone though. I develop products for clients or for my own business, was doing it all my life and was doing it from my own office for last 26 years. Not overworked either. Have enough time to enjoy life. Al in all very happy
I really don't get why people spend so much on flagship phones! I tend to aim for $200 Motos for me and my family, and it feels like it's a 90%+ solution at a tenth of the price. I can still browse the web, text with people, make calls, listen to music, and take pictures. They still last for years, and if they get dropped and the screen cracks, it just means its time to upgrade. What am I missing here?
I started paying for phones with really good cameras once I had kids and I wanted to take lots of pictures with them. I definitely notice the quality difference in random, off-the-cuff photos (which is the vast majority), though if I have time to set up a bit, cheaper phones produce pictures that look the same to me.
Because 7 years from now, my iPhone will still have the latest OS and security updates. I also have the budget iPhone 16e. I also haven't broken a phone since I was 16. Not like cheap androids that are often abandonware by the device maker before they even hit the shelves.
It sucks. I wish that would change, but that is what made me switch from Android to iPhone after 12 years on Android. At the time, even flagship androids were lucky to get 2 years of OS updates and security fixes. Apparently Google and Samsung are going to support their devices longer, but I'll wait till they have a track record. But ultimately, an iPhone for me does come out cheaper over the lifetime of a device than cycling through cheap androids every 2 years.
I'm not getting a first generation of these things but if I could replace my iPad and my iPhone with this, the economics start to make more sense. Not for everyone, of course, but it'd be within my budget for replacing both devices.
I'm not sure the unfolded version will be big enough to truly replace my iPad Pro, though.
you're missing blue bubbles, computational photography, and FOMO. re: nothing actually important.
many people have a phone as their only device though, so great screens and cameras and everything else are easily rationalized behind the managable cost of carrier plan's indirect loan.
There is widespread crippling phone addiction in our society. That is one reason why people want premium flagship features. If you are going to stare at your phone for 3+ hours a day, spending more to get the latest and greatest makes sense.
Well, this one folds, so you get a much larger screen surface that still fits in your pocket. And $200 won't get you that from any vendor. And while the low end phones have gotten amazingly good, a flag ship will still have a much better camera, better screen, better battery etc. If that's worth the price is a decision everyone has to make for themselves.
Sidenote, I've not had a single one of my smartphones crack a screen since 2008 when I got my first smartphone, take that for what it's worth.
Both could be said of the iPhone Pro as well, which continues to sell and sell well. It's obvious to me there's a market for this stuff I'm not part of, same as the Vision Pro, and that's fine.
Beauty is subjective. That's not snark, that's reality. Nothing is "genuinely beautiful". You can't just call something beautiful and have everyone agree that it is in fact "beautiful". It's the most overused word in marketing.
Genuinely bonkers. I never thought they’d do this. Just seems so like a Xiaomi Xi7 Super Max Fold Z or something. But I have to say that when I used one of those Android folding phones it was quite cool to end up with a big screen in your pocket.
It looks quite well done, though I'm definitely not in the target demographic for this. I'm happy with my high-end desktop devices and shittier mobile devices. The last thing I want is for my phone to be more capable and incentivize me to use it more lol. I use mine to call, text, listen to music, check email, use the map, track workouts, and basic web browsing. I don't need more than that.
I'm in the exact same boat. I already gave Apple a bunch of money for something with a hinge this summer, and it's a Mac that can actually run a terminal, a proper desktop browser, or even something wacky like x86 games through a compatibility layer, etc.
No way I prioritize that kind of cash on something that only runs mobile-tier software.
It actually looks really nice; and I'd consider myself their target demographic conceptually. My last iPhone was a Pro for context.
But at a $2K starting price, plus likely another $200 for the storage size they really expect people to purchase, in this economy, it is so far outside of my price range it is dead to me.
Which is to say: Cool tech, but I've already dismissed it as something I want evaluate for my next phone just based on price alone.
That's maybe the real death-nail for folding phones: Price hasn't yet shifted to allow them to be mass market rather than enthusiast phones.
In my location I can order the Z Fold 8 for cheaper than the 18 Pro Max, and I can see in the price history that it has also been available for cheaper than the regular 18 Pro.
If I wouldn't at the moment focus on developing iOS apps, the Z Fold 8 would be very tempting.
This. He would have never approved a foldable phone, the iPhone Air, or the Vision Pro. Apple is back to throwing shit at the wall like they were in the 90s. Directionless. Visionless.
apple is always "late to the party" and regularly takes existing tech, polishes it to a high standard of UX, and introduces a new paradigm for consumer tech products. if xiaomi has ever done that please let me know.
not to mention that chinese consumer goods companies are largely siloed to the east anyways
I see some iPhone Pro Max buyers getting this simply because they paid around $1200 last year, then after trade-in ($885 for a 17PM), they could get into the Duo for $1,200.
If someone had that amount of disposable income last year, they might have it to throw at another upgrade this year.
Very strange how in the middle of a specs page for the device they a pitch there suggesting you get an Apple Card (formatted on the spec page as if it was actually a spec of this device) before continuing on with the rest of the specs/features.
I haven't looked, but am guessing the probably exists on other Apple specs pages.
Reminds me of the windows fold phone. ‘‘Twas the best of phones, but out of my price range at the time. Now I have nostalgia of windows phone, the best phone os that never was.
Even though I like the form factor I doubt I’d cash out 2k for it, seems like a waste just to spend more time on another screen.
I've been out of the loop on foldable phones, and this is question is not related to specifically the iPhone Duo. How does it work that it doesn't show a crease in the middle? What's the breakthrough technology there? Or is there a visible crease?
the lcd is flexible, it doesn't fold in a sharp crease but uses a complicated hinge to roll it into a loose bend when closed. But maintaining a "crease-free" appearance after many use cycles seems to be a major challenge in this market.
There will inevitably be a crease after a few weeks/months, as every folding phone has had. Apple is relying on Samsung's display tech, and Apple doesn't have better solutions than Samsung.
The reason it doesn't actively crease is because it's not like a piece of paper you press on to fold: the screen "rounds" itself, and as long as it doesn't go past a breakpoint (which is what the body of the phone prevents), it'll restore.
Apple often aggressively cuts scope like this on first generation products and then brings back the features in the future updates. Maybe it’s to provide a reason to upgrade, maybe it’s just good project management but iPhone Duo 2 having “dual FaceID” sounds like something Apple would do.
Look at the low end iPhone’s slowing getting better screens, TouchID, and then FaceID.
I have not much to say about the device, probably great. But the image selection for showcasing the camera improvements seems odd. As a non US person, i have the impression it tries to tailor its branding the most cliche type of peer groups. The result seems quite ridiculous
I tried the Samsung one with the same form factor in a store , and that is pretty nice.
As someone traveling via plane or train, I can easily see myself using this and not carrying my tablet with me.
However, just too expensive for my taste. I get a lot of new batteries for my current 12 pro for that price .
Foldable gimmicks aside the new materials and components sound really cool. How they have the screen layers that move freely seems innovative. The new ceramic they’re using for the outer shell/screen sounds great and I hope we see it in more of their devices:
“Ceramic Shield 2 on the outer display reduces glare and provides 3x better scratch resistance than the previous generation”
I love my iPhone SE 3rd gen. Perfect form factor. Neither too big nor too small to be able to do useful things on it. My hands and arms hurt using large phones. I am so used to using one hand to operate phones. My previous was iPhone SE 1st gen. Why do people need such a large phone in day to day life usage? Carry an iPad/tablet if you really need one.
Yes, I also was curious about left-handed users watching the demo, it seems very right-hand oriented at this time. Maybe there will be a toggle in Settings to switch some of the UI around, kind of like how Apple Watch asks which wrist it's wrapped around.
I’m not the target market for this phone at all, but I have to wonder how many people are going to take the 256 GB option for $1,999. It feels like that option only exists so they could show a starting price under $2,000.
The 512 GB version for $2,199 seems like option you’d really want as a minimum, and then you’d need to add AppleCare on top of that. Pricey!
I get excited about this but that's because I want this... not because I need it.
What I actually need might be less of an iPhone and more of a nano than a duo. Something small and portable that doesn't make me spend every spare second on the phone.
Does anyone use their phone “like an actual phone” anymore, as in held to their ear?
Most people I see out and about are either using face time, or inexplicably speaking in speakerphone and holding the flat, face up, with the bottom of the phone towards to their mouth in a weird awkward way, or they are using headphones, wired or wireless.
I mean I do understand the appeal of the idea of folding smartphones, but I did not hear about any miracle material breakthroughs lately.
So.. how can this exist? Why does it say that it is durable, when it has to be made out of materials that cannot be durable or else they wouldn't fold.
Did something change there and I'm just using stale data for that assessment, or is "durability" just not as valuable to the target audience?
Seems that way! Small detail, but I liked that the front display can be used for taking selfies with the main camera. Opens the door for slightly nicer selfies with the self or friends, versus stuck with front camera or shooting blind.
The hardware is probably stellar and it must be an incredible reading device, but it's 2026 and I refuse to buy a device with a proprietary locked down software ecosystem.
I sympathize but you're literally looking at something an hour old and demanding that the economic and political realities that produced it change entirely.
I agree with the sentiment and hopefully am using my last phone like that right now, but I’m also really hoping for very big advances for Linux phones before it comes time to upgrade. Right now they all seem to have serious drawbacks
Considering only two major mobile platforms exist and both are proprietary locked down software ecosystems, I assume you have a PinePhone or something?
I wonder if the iPhone Air was something like a pilot or beta test for the Duo. Getting things as thin as possible and shipping it before attaching two of them together. FWIW I feel there's more demand for foldables (Google/Samsung/Microsoft have demonstrated some) than there is for ultra thin phones with the tradeoffs those entail.
10 years from now people will claim Apple invented folding smartphones or made them mainstream, just like they claim the same thing now about smartwatches.
I would not, under any circumstance, use that official case.
My experience; I walked with an iPad Pro in my hand and I went to an interview, so I was a bit nervous. I let the iPad slip out of my hand. It had the official Apple cover, which leaves the edge exposed. So it falls, and drops such that it dents the side. This in turn cracks the display. I learned that Apple will not replace a display when the frame is damaged.
Do you think this is the first folding phone that ever existed? There are plenty of cases for folding phones, they've been around for many years already. Cases for this phone will likely work exactly the same.
Honestly I have owned two Apple Watches and you are missing nothing. They do look nice if that’s your taste, but they are extremely locked down and are pretty useless without an iPhone. I cannot cite even one application that is a killer app on the Apple Watch. Most apps are just a companion for the iOS part of the app.
- reviewing notifications or declining calls without grabbing phone
None of these are "killer apps" but they're conveniences. I like having an accurate source of time that I don't have to pick something up for. I like being able to track my sleep schedule and duration over time. I like to know when my heart rate is high so I can take steps to quiet down. I don't use many of the other features, maybe some sparingly, but I've never really used the Watch for its apps anyway. And I think only the last feature on my list, maybe the last two, needs iPhone.
I've had to go without my Watch for the better part of half a year because it's refurbished and I've been trying to diagnose an Apple Developer Program enrollment issue, and Apple won't tell me which device was previously used so I have to rule out everything I didn't purchase brand new, etc., but I still constantly feel its absence. It's just a convenience but it was a welcome one.
Note that the Watch did previously require an iPhone for initial setup, but it does not anymore.
Oh but I agree that the Apple Watch does all of that very well, I myself use it mostly for this.
I was just answering to gp : the Apple Watch pretty much only make sense if you own an iPhone. Else, you’d better buy any other smartwatch brand which will allow you to do much more than an Apple Watch without an iPhone.
This has not been true for a while. Google "apple watch family setup". You just need to know someone with an iphone, once, to set it up. You can even set up cellular and use that for all watch internet needs, incl imessage, calls, facetim (audio), and weather & apps
I took the tethering demand as Apple chickening out from Watch doing to iPhone what iPhone did to iPod. Having used a cell plan watch for a while, I can almost do away with the full phone aside from it being a requirement to manage the watch.
I am really quite disappointed this was not taken as an opportunity to make the default form factor smaller. Instead it seems like the folded mode is larger than a pro max, which is insane. I guess I'll just continue with the normal phones.
It seems they are segmenting the market on creator vs consumer between the pro and the duo, and betting the consumers want this form factor.
The pro max is like 6.9” screen and the duo is 5.4”? How is that bigger? Perhaps wider, but the thumb should have better reach and coverage of the screen.
I see the nano-texture is non-negotiable -- you won't get a clear screen with the Duo. I'm incredibly skeptical of this, and I'll have to check it out once it's in-store to see if that's even something I could tolerate in daily use. When I checked out a Studio Display with nano-texture, I could not stand it because of the shimmery rainbow grain, somewhat like staring through Scotch tape, and the general fuzziness of text. Not sure if that's improved, since Apple doesn't address flaws in their past products.
Why is that area non-trivial? Do you use anything that has important content in the very corners? I've never seen anything that has important content in the areas this cuts off. I'm really curious about your use of corners!
Let's wait and see how well this Touch ID works. My alarm bells went off when it was mentioned in conjunction with the Apple Watch also being able to unlock it.
I can't argue with that model, but in the past they actually did new and interesting things! The M series processor, the iPhone. Lets hope new CEO who is more of an engineer then the last one was ramps things up.
most of their innovations are in stuff that would be boring to go into detail with. They talked about the advancements in their A series processors (but you left that out), they talk about their complex layering to prevent a crease from forming, they talk about the dynamic audio. Love em or hate em but you cant say they arent doing new things.
why is Apple releasing new products when Siri is falling so short compared to the industry. Make Siri amazing would improve every apple product immensely.
I’m sure I read something about NEW SIRI somewhere. Siri isn’t just falling short, it seems to be getting actively and progressively more useless. My HomePod speakers take about 10 seconds to respond now and often get things wrong.
Siri is slowly getting better, but Apple's never been about matching the industry. They've always been about being the best Apple they can be. (They haven't followed this perfectly, but they keep re-learning it's the way, every time someone tries to mess with the formula.)
Ignoring your other criticism and focusing just on one: How do you justify your claim that it arrived too late? What have people moved onto past foldable phones, in your view?
Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
I don't mind folding. I think it's cool, and a nice way to get a useful space. But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands. This is even wider before unfolding.
Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I want smaller phones. The width of the iPhone 4 was nearly perfect imo. If they would take modern display technology with approximately that width and expand it to 16:9, I think it would kill, even if it were relatively underpowered compared to the modern top of the line.
Because for a lot (most?) people their iPhone is their primary and only personal computer. I also want a smaller phone. I bet Apple designers would love to sell you a smaller phone. They've certainly tried with my beloved and retired iPhone mini and the same size but thinner iPhone air. But the market keeps rejecting it because it's not just a portable companion to some other computer, it is the computer. If you're doing all your work on it then you need more real estate. Aging populations across the globe probably need more screen real estate also for bigger text.
My need for this new iPhone is driven by my declining vision. Twenty years ago, I had no problem with my first iPhone. Five years ago, I started to get acquainted with some of the visual accommodation measures in iOS. I do still use my (physically larger than I would like) iPhone 16 Pro Max, which I bought for the biggest screen. I'd love to do my stuff on my laptop or desktop, but smartphones are de facto The Computer these days. So I'll probably buy an iPhone Duo after I sell a kidney for financing. All that said, today's Apple presentation left me gobsmacked at the technology they've developed. I was born before civilian jet transports were in service, with all that implies for a long personal view of tech dev. The tech feels to me like a cut&paste from 2076.
They confused "smaller" with "budget" though, if the good camera was available in the smaller size I would have bought it.
Camera blocks take internal volume. Smaller phones have less internal volume to spend - while still having to pack all the non-negotiables like the modem and the SoC into it. Something's got to give. And no one want that something to be the battery life going down to 6 hours.
Volume constraints are bad enough for "normal" models. "Minis" have it way worse.
Same, I look longingly at the Samsung Flip and I'd buy one in a heartbeat if only it had the camera system from the Ultra. I'll even pay the Ultra price+extra for the foldable function.
But right now it's in a space where you're paying extra for the fact that it's a foldable, but it feels....budget in its specs? Like...how does that work?
The iPhone Air is nearly 20% larger than the mini
As my eyesight is getting worse I do end up appreciating bigger phones. Even though I miss how smaller phones felt in my hand, it's just hard to see small text on it and that's even though I don't use my phone all that much since I have a kindle for reading and a computer for everything else.
I'm honestly curious about the "market keeps rejecting it" part. Yes, they sold far fewer units than the other models....but did they really not make money? I have made variations on this comment many many times. I completely buy that the opinions about phone form factor and features expressed on HN/reddit/online, and my own idiosyncratic preferences probably even more so, represent somewhat of a niche, and that your median phone consumer isn't interested in what we/I want. But the phone market seems like it's so large that it should be able to support a lot of niches! A tenth of a percent of the total market (~1,300 million in 2023 according to [0], 0.1% of which would be 1.3 million phones) should be totally viable as a business! I get that, maybe for Apple there is opportunity cost. Having more product lines adds overhead, and if the profit margin on those extra product lines isn't enough higher than the main lines to justify that overhead, they kill it. But why doesn't some smaller company (so yes, this mostly applies to Android) try to steal that fractional market share? I simply don't understand why it doesn't work to the point that now, when the market is so much larger than it was in the past, we have so much less hardware diversity.
[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263437/global-smartphone...
> should be able to support a lot of niches
Apple's whole thing is that they don't do niches. Support a select few versions of select few products very very well is the whole MO
Why does the Vision Pro exist then? What is that if not a niche? What about the iPad Mini or for that matter the Mac Mini, which if not for the recent AI craze would have been cut in the next few years for sure.
Apple can absolutely do niche products. Just not this one I guess.
> but did they really not make money?
I'm sure they made money. But that's not the right question to ask, in my opinion. The right question is did they make as much or more than their internal rate of return (IRR)? Perhaps the smaller iPhones (I had one) do not so they cut the product line. Or maybe they over-purchased some components and figured they could make a phone or two out of them.
Like many other HNers, I don't quite understand the appeal of not having their own computer, or even a VPS setup they can remote info for more structured work. But then I remember the famous Dropbox comment where one user had qualms, and perhaps looking outside our bubble can be worth it.
Apparently a lot of people don't even own a proper computer nowadays, be it a PC or a laptop, it's all just phones/tablets. In fact I know a university professor teaching CS and he told me that obviously not everyone, but a growing population of students starts the CS course without knowing how to use a mouse. They all have laptops, they know how to use a keyboard and a touchpad, but unless they are gamers they probably have never used a mouse.
I really don't think this is just for people who don't have personal computers. I do think this is for people who don't want to carry additional separate devices with them in order to access the bigger-screen experiences. There are a couple gimmicks based on the fold as well.
I for one would love to have my phone turn into a tablet while I'm charging my car. Saves me from having to bring the iPad separately, which can't fit in my pocket. Would eliminate a step from that routine.
Also would love to always have that capability on me in the case where I couldn't have foreseen a need for the bigger screen. Being randomly out with friends and able to spontaneously just show them something in a way they can actually see would be nice.
And why does it need to be wider when folded for that? The competition showed that a narrow folding phone works quite well if you want to have access to a bigger screen without a different device
Apple explained during the event why the square aspect ratio was not for them, but basically it doesn't conform to content well. You supposedly get less black bars with this approach.
Apple Watch with cellular is effectively iPhone mini. There are 3d printable cases to make it into a bar phone.
https://makerworld.com/en/models/1022751-watch-phone#profile...
The Apple Watches have also been getting bigger.
The first Apple Watches came in 38mm and 42mm sizes. That "large" Apple Watch is the size of the current "small" Apple Watch (42mm).
Mostly by shrinking the bezels tho
> The Apple Watches have also been getting bigger.
A large watch face has always been a style people into watches go for. It's not just a digital smartwatch trend.
Pretty much All watch manufacturers have <40mm models.
There are a lot of aluminum cases that transform the watch into an ipod, and some of them are advertised to be used as a phone as well.
To go on a different tangent, I want a round Apple Watch. I know it's not the most efficient use of space, but dangit I don't want the weird little (but constantly-growing) square! If I have to have something on my wrist all day, I want it to look nice and not like a brick.
I'd like to see anyone try to use this for, like, anything at all. A video of someone posting a HN comment on this thing would absolutely make my day.
Yeah, nah, this isn't anywhere near an iPhone mini in usability. I can appreciate it as a design exercise, but as an actual daily driver? Hell no
unfortunately for me at least the handwriting recognition still seems to be at the "Eat Up, Martha" phase https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlG_uEd1we0
Your question reminds me of this hilarious image after the ipad was released: https://cdn.osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/iboard-i...
One day the stockpiles of iPhone 13 minis will deplete to the point where making new products in that form factor is economically viable.
Until then, off to eBay we go. There are more than enough sitting around completely unused. You aren't missing out on much with 5 iPhone generations these days.
Yep I'm keeping my 12 mini until it fails. It's absolutely the biggest phone I would ever want. I'd prefer one a bit smaller, actually, as I still cannot reach all points on the screen one-handed, at least not without changing my grip which risks dropping it.
I switched off my 13 Mini this year to go to a Pixel 10 for the better Pebble support. I still miss it, it really was the last perfectly-sized phone.
I’ll do the upgrade to 13 Mini from my 2020 SE once it breaks
Main issue would be impending lack of iOS updates, together with increased risk of zero-days due to AI.
Love my 13 mini. Wish they'd 86 the SE and add USB-C to the mini instead.
Intrigued by the Duo though
Also clinging on to my 12 mini in spite of decreasing battery capacity.
If there was a 15+ mini, I would’ve upgraded a long time ago.
As an average height woman with average hands, I want 1) an Apple + Levi's collaboration to put iPad Mini sized pockets in women's jeans 2) a phone slightly smaller than the SE so I can reach the furthest corner with my thumb
I'm on an iPhone 13 mini and got the battery replaced this year - hoping to get another three years out of it.
I'm still on the iPhone 12 mini for this reason.
I really deeply wish they had attempted a profile that was 64mm wide folded and double unfolded. Height is less important.
The whole advantage of having any screen at all when folded is something quick to access and *one handable*. Just looking at the Duo, it appears too wide for that by a large amount.
If I’m forced to two hand the thing I’ll just get a phablet: no folding mechanism, no unfolding step before using properly, no gigantic price hike (guessing).
Are you left handed? The rearranging of the UI to provide navigation on the right side of the 5.4” screen seems like it was made for this exact purpose.
It's battery life.
I was an iPhone 13 mini user for the last few years. I would buy a refurbished one off Amazon whenever my current one broke. I really prefer the smaller screen size.
Recently, I broke my phone again and my wife happened to have a larger iPhone laying around unused (through some accident of e-commerce). I felt weird buying a new phone when we had a perfectly good one laying around, so I decided to give it a shot.
I don't watch any video on my phone and most of my screentime is Kindle and Safari. My screentime is only like 2-3hrs per day. And yet, I still found myself chronically running out of batteries on the 13 mini. I actually now would prefer to keep my new annoyingly large 16e just to not have the battery anxiety.
(A hidden assumption in the above is that larger screens make more room for battery.)
I gather that for many people, their smartphone is their only computing device. Doesn't have much appeal for me, but if that was the case, I could see that nudging people towards bigger devices, even if it makes them less practical as phones you carry around / try to grasp with one hand.
A lot of people who are "mobile-only" prefer larger phones.
> But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands.
I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone. So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have.
>A lot of people who are "mobile-only" prefer larger phones.
And a lot of people who are not prefer smaller ones.
>I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone. So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have.
Not in the slightest. I've got a Galaxy A52, a large-ish phone for its time, and I can use it quite easily with one hand. I can't readily think of the small-hands equivalent of Shaq to compose a snarky "it's you" retort, and I'm sure it's not just you, but plenty people around you, with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
To do what? I usually hold it with my left and, and one-finger (right-hand index finger) to type / scroll / select / etc. I guess I never "got" the phone model properly or something. My daughters type way faster on their phones, I can't do thumb typing (how do you hit those letters?!?), plus my thumbs get too sore too fast (decades on the edge of carpal tunnel) and/or cramp up.
I was timed at 140+ wpm in high school and online tests / etc have hit close to 200 wpm on a Qwerty. So I CAN touch-type and do it well - and keyboard + mouse is my goto jam. My favorite phone (alas, discontinued way too soon) was the Photon Q (work gave us phones way back) with slide-out physical keyboard.
I "use" an S21, but even just entering my 4-digit pin is awkward with my left thumb - is there some other way to hold it? I can't even imagine trying it with my right.. My thumbs just cramp up..
Mobile-only is a larger segment and growing. "ipad kids" are at the age where they are "iphone teens". And it's also the segment of people who care most about phones.
Apple made smaller phones, but they don't sell. They don't sell when they are nice phones, but smaller, and they don't sell when they are cheap phones and smaller.
Tech people are like car people in that they don't really appreciate that their preferences are niche. Wanting a smaller phone is akin to wanting a smaller car
> with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
According to the US Army, the average length of the male thumb: 2.75 in; for women it's 2.49. So we can assume the actual population averages are probably a bit lower.
That means the average iphone is larger than the average male thumb, by a reasonable amount, and it has been for quite a number of generations.
Personally, my thumb is as wide as my iphone, but practically, the way I have to hold it one-handed means that I can only reach half of the screen (technically, the bottom quadrant, so 25% of the overall screen area). I'd need another 1" or so to reach the entire width of the screen with a single hand, and idk 2"+ to navigate the entire screen one handed.
The disconnect probably comes from what it means to "use" a phone one-handed. I mean to be able to hold it in one hand and touch anywhere on the screen and perform any action. Which limits phone size to around 2.25"x4.50", or so to account for a average hand to hit 95% of surface area while holding it. You might mean, just be able to type, or just be able to scroll, which does change things.
> Apple made smaller phones, but they don't sell. They don't sell when they are nice phones, but smaller, and they don't sell when they are cheap phones and smaller.
They funny thing is that the sales numbers were only terrible compared to other iPhones. IIRC it was something like 3% of the iPhone market at the time of discontinuation. Not a big seller for Apple, certainly, but there were times when the Mini made the top ten list for smartphones in general.
I use my iPhone SE with one hand all the time, and have small-ish hands. Being able to use a phone with one hand is a fairly basic accessibility feature, not a niche ask
Yes, I too remember when Shaq starred in this commercial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0gtsjfy7E
I'm not Shaq and I also have this complaint. Moved recently from an iPhone 13 mini which I could easily use with one hand to a iPhone 17 Pro which I can not use with one hand.
Can confirm that I am not Shaq, but the 4S was the last phone I could use entirely one-handed (i.e. my thumb had full reach of the screen whilst my pinkie finger sat under the bottom of the phone, cradling it), and the 13 mini was the last functional size where I could reach at least part of the top of the screen with my thumb.
I can use iphone SE (3rd gen) with one hand, and I'm not Shaq either presumably.
What? Plenty of people can use the smaller iPhones with just one hand.
They’ve made mini iPhones before and they didn’t kill. In fact, they sold poorly enough to get killed.
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Because the common user for some strange reason has come to prefer phablets to mobile phones.
For the Duo to make sense at all, it basically has to fold out into a screen which is big enough that (quite often, at least) you don't feel obliged to bring along a second, larger device anyway, or to wait until you get home or back to the office to "do real computer". That means that hitting a large-enough unfolded size and a suitable unfolded aspect ratio had to be Priority 1.
Nobody bought the hp veer. Small phones stopped being valuable when phones got good enough to be the only screen a layman would see in a single day. It's now a game of 'movie theater in your pocket.' For better or for worse.
Even Samsung offers their 'smaller than a normal phone unfolds to a normal phone' as secondary to the flagship fold. The Flip, to me, is almost marketed as a kid's phone for your teenager.
I specifically have an iPhone SE for this reason. I should be able to reach the upper right corner with one hand.
I think the iPhone 3G was peak iPhone design. It felt good to hold and was small. Later small models hand sharper edges and didn’t feel as good in the hand.
The Duo’s folded size has the same screen size as the iPhone mini, so they did go on the smaller size, rather than trying to unfold a Pro Max. It remains to be seen how the aspect ratio impacts one-handed use.
I’d take a small foldable over a large slab.
iPhone 5s was peak form factor IMHO. I thought I would be tempted by the folding iPhone but it looks way too wide for me to use comfortably
The data shows that people want to consume video content on their phones So bigger screens are better
That is it. Nothing else.
I'd also add that the mobile gaming market on iPhone is the largest individual gaming competitor, at least by the dollars, and bigger screen probably enhances play experiences that can be had on mobile.
i tend to watch videso on phone but love to switch to ipad for reading documents.
Did you use the iPhone mini
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Others wrote complicated or bs jokes, here is my SIMPLE tip:
It has to change otherwise people would not buy new. Size can not change randomly so it has 2 ways: decreasing and later it becomes an iwatch, and tablet becomes a phone: this is stupid because harder to increase price.
So increase it is. If you do not like it, use a watch+earpiece as a phone.
I like bigger phones. Being over 50, my eyesight is crap and I need a bigger screen. Yeah, I miss one handed operation, but I already accepted that loss years ago. This will be the year I finally switch to apple though(18 pro max, most likely). Bye bye Pixel.
It’s crazy that the reason we can’t have a comfortable-to-hold one is that a product that only sells 5 or 10 million units a year isn’t worth their time.
Bigger phone = bigger battery = more time between charges
The phone that grabs most attention always wins. Consumers don't do multi-year procurement processes unlike government agencies selecting a device - they literally gravitate towards bright light and pick up the device on the demo stand. So there's always going to be an arms race of more bigger and ever more glittery phones. That is, until a massive disruption like a flip-phone-to-smartphone transition comes and all those obnoxious peacocks gets instantly wiped out and doves come filling in the void.
I would guess more people care about battery life and the features that more battery capacity afford than ergonomics
One of the reasons I plan on purchasing the iPhone Duo is actually because it has a smaller outer screen size than any of the other iPhones. Agreed that it is wider, but I think it can still be used one handed for most people
iPhone SE?
People do NOT want smaller phones, that should be abundantly obvious.
Who wants bigger phones: Tens of millions in higher end market.
Who wants smaller phones: Tens of thousands in lower end market.
People act like bigger screens and no headphone jack is some conspiracy. It’s a competitive market. Small phones exist. Headphone jacks exist. They’re obscure because they don’t sell well, because that’s not what most people want.
It’s frustrating when you have an uncommon desire for a mass market product, I get it. But the answer to “why do they” is pretty obvious if you can understand that you’re not representative.
By that metric they shouldn’t release a folding phone at all, it’s a very niche market
Cars also seem to get bigger with each iteration. Then the introduce new smaller models that are the same size as the earlier model..
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Because every time, they want it to be the next big thing.
I also have huge hands, but a few years ago started to develop a persistent thumb sprain due “reaching” with it across my phone. This is problem that would not have happened if my phone was the size they used to be.
Yeah. A foldable that is the size of the 12 mini so that you can use it with one hand but still fold out to watch something etc.
But instead we got the largest screen before unfolding…
While I agree on screen size, Apple does give a good amount of thought into application side of things - screen-layout fall into either the iPad like layout or single-column one of a regular phone. This is a bit easier for App developers. Also force-upgrade of OS is also better for those targeting iOS compared to the Android world.
For me it's fitting the damn thing in my pocket. And unfortunately, width is the main limiter there, making this far WORSE than any other, despite the smaller screen. I can't imagine what this thing would do to your jeans. Apple needs to sell tiny man satchels with this thing.
Agree. The comparison to a passport is ludicrous since a passport can be curled around your leg when it's in a pocket where this obviously cannot.
Maybe an increasing share of their market are people like me, that is, old and blind :-D
For a second there from the name I was really hopeful that iPhone Duo _could_ have been the replacement for my iPhone 13 Mini.
The Duo is also pretty heavy at 254 grams (almost 9 ounces). The Fold8 is only 201 grams.
When you're old enough to need reading glasses, larger is better.
I'd love a tiny phone. I just can't see it anymore.
It's probably a good idea to reduce phone computing to a minimum. Also the larger phone will likely damage your vision to need glasses eventually but there are other ergonomic factors at play. Do you want to hold your phone with two hands? Doesn't it get tiring for wrists to hold the phone in the position? I personally reduced phone usage but am still using a SE2022 which is a small phone. For reading I got a e ink reader and Im very happy with that.
It's smaller though, until you unfold it
The problem is people don't buy small phones. ASUS' Zenfone 9 and 10 were, in my opinion, basically perfect; small, someting I can actually hold in my non-athletic hands, but they didn't sell well at all, and ASUS abandoned the small phone market entirely with the Zenfone 11 Ultra.
I’m still stuck on my iPhone 12 mini because I like the size
I think mini phones will have a resurgence.
i do. i do reading and watching on my ipad mini. i can stop using that if i can get two in one device like this.
The size of the iPhone 16e is quite reasonable.
Agree. I miss the mini. My girlfriend still has hers and is reluctant to upgrade for the inflation in size that happens every generation. Pretty soon we'll all look stupid with tablet-sized phones hanging from our necks by a lanyard.
>Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Wait until you get old enough to have to put readers on to use your devices like most older people do. And while I am yelling at the kids on my lawn, let me add every UI/UX person at apple - the idiotic and unnecessary choices they make for the sake of "cool design" infuriate me on a daily basis.
Presumably they are a trillion dollar company because they know the precise size of phones that will sell to the most people. Hacker News is full of the 100 people (me included!) that love small phones but the general public LOVES their gigantic horrible loud phones :)
We are talking about how wide the phone is when folded. The company doesn’t know yet what exactly the market wants here, given it’s a new form factor for the apple audience
> But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands.
Are you a woman by any chance? I am currently typing this one handed on an iPhone 17 pro (not the pro max) and don’t consider my hands to be particularly large, for a man, but my wife has to two hand her android which is roughly the same size
Keep in mind the dimensions of the iPhone 1 were based on the most comfortable shape and size they could come up with. They weren’t targeting women specifically.
The iPhone 18 Pro has the exact same dimensions as the iPhone 17 Pro. It's only the new iPhone Duo that's bigger.
They released a number of small iphones over the years, and those always failed to reach meaningful sales numbers. Stated vs revealed preference I guess? People keep picking the larger model, so the models keep getting larger
I don't follow iphone products, but if it's anything like android this is because they tend to be the lower end models and are missing the features that people really want (mainly a better camera/lens setup). The top of the line models are ALWAYS the bigger phones and if your going for something budget, then you're better off with the Chinese brands for value.
High quality camera lenses take space. That alone starts to dictate the size of the phone. Add in the desire for all day battery life, and we start talking more volume. And the fastest chips take more power, so again more battery. The best way to justify the increased size is with a bigger screen and now you’re stuck with a larger phone.
Or a smaller phone that is more expensive to produce. In which case, it won’t sell well regardless.
It’s easy to see how we got to this point of large phones, but it is not very clear how someone like Apple can make a significantly smaller phone and keep customers happy.
As you mentioned, other vendors probably will have better luck.
Faster chips absolutely don't have to take more power. Apple's fastest chips tend to be some of their most power-efficient. It's sustained workload that takes power, and the faster chips just have a higher performance budget.
For the iPhones, the small models were generally very capable. For example, the 13 mini was essentially identical to the regular 13 except for the physical size and battery life: https://www.apple.com/se/xc/iphone/compare?device1=IPHONE13M...
If small high-end models would sell, they’d be sold. It’s possible for a company to have a blind spot for a market segment, but not for an entire competitive market over many years.
I think it's because the people who want the smaller phone don't just want the smaller phone to the exclusion of everything else.
Some want a flagship model, some want a mid range, some entry level... all in small form factors and they won't compromise in order to settle for the one small model that's available.
You are describing me as well, but our market size is negligible compared to to 50% of the population that throws this thing in a purse.
Flatly incorrect.
In 2020, the iPhone SE sold over 24 million units.
In 2022, sales of iPhone mini 13, iPhone mini 12, and iPhone SE made up 12% of total iPhone sales.
Thats despite intentionally nerfing every one of those models.
If you look at comparable phones, the iPhone 7 and 8 (4.7") outsold the iPhone 7 Plus and 8 Plus (5.5") by significant margins.
Nobody wants large phones.
Since Apple doesn't release iPhone sales figures per model, I'm suspicious about your sales metrics.
> 12%
> Nobody wants large phones.
Be serious. 88% of buyers chose something they don’t want? Apple is saying, “actually we hate money, so we’re not going to make a model that people want to buy”?
Why is it so hard for people to accept that maybe their preference isn’t the common one?
What is "meaningful"?
I was listening to the Accidental Tech Podcast last week and Marco said that the iPhone Air has lower penetration, after 1 year, than EACH of the 12 mini and 13 mini _currently_ have. Among a tech audience.
We just had to replace a family 13 mini and it sucks to have to go with a huge modern phone. Personally, I'd also prefer a mini if it had the best cameras.
Enough to justify major manufacturers to go through the trouble
I know the general consensus is that the mini was cancelled for (relatively) low sales, but I wonder if that was due in part to the release of the SE? I got the SE 2 not because it was cheaper, but because it was smaller. At the time I was on a 2-3 year upgrade cycle, so when the 12 mini was released a couple of months later, I thought "cool, I'll upgrade to the 14 mini when it's released." Of course the mini was canceled after the 13, so I snatched up the 13 and will hold on to it until it crumbles in my hand.
Same with phones with replaceable batteries.
Right, because it scratches some nostalgia thing that people have obtained osmotically. Nobody actually wants a replaceable battery that makes their phone vastly thicker and harder to waterproof, nobody wants phones that randomly catch fire because their OOPLMXC brand battery from amazon wasn’t up to snuff, nobody wants to be carrying a pocket full of extra batteries to swap all day. Devices with field replaceable batteries just sucked a lot more than people don’t remember. As much as people clamor online about how they want these things, given the option they will shy away from it because it doesn’t match the fantasy that’s been created about “what has been taken from us”.
And headphone jacks.
anyone with a pile of dongles disagrees here. It was clearly broken to sell AirPods
By most Android vendors too?
I wish I could choose even thicker to get the Pro Max's battery life but with the Pro's ability to be held comfortably. You practically need two hands to take a screenshot with the Pro Max
>Who wants bigger phones?
If we go by history, consumers. And when Apple last offered a smaller phone, consumers did not go for it.
The reason they keep getting bigger is because Apple is rotting. When a tech company rots, it gets bloated. That bloat seeps into the products.
totally agree with this
I don't see it as a bigger phone.
It's a new thing.
Not a phone. Not a laptop. Not an iPad.
It's an agent terminal.
The people at Microsoft who made the Surface Duo must be feeling pretty weird seeing this. The name, the aspect ratio, the way the UI works, the gestures for setting up split-screen, the "use it as a tiny laptop" mode... It's all things they pioneered.
Not that that's a bad thing. I absolutely loved the Surface Duo, it was my favorite phone until it stopped working correctly, and I hope other Android manufacturers take note of this, not just Samsung. It's just wild to see how similar this new Duo is to the original Duo.
Good design is inevitable.
In a completely clean room environment where a designer had never seen a folding phone, but had all the context of the iPhone and everything Apple had done, they would develop almost exactly the same design and features.
Designers have also been exploring the concept of foldable devices for literal decades, well before any reached the market. I have an industrial design and technology degree, we did a project in 2005 where we explored the designs around this, looking at the UI, the physical interaction, everything. My design had a similar aspect ratio and size, as I am sure half the student did my year and every other year they ran the project. (the iPhone Duo is about thousand times better than my design though!)
Thats not to say the Microsoft designers didn't do an incredible job, they did, but they were building on decades of design ideation from those that had experimented before them.
I find that story hard to believe. Your industrial design class designed folding iPhones 2 years before anyone had even seen the first iPhone? Sounds like a leap. That said, at the time, the most popular phone in the world was a folding phone, the Motorola Razr.
> the "use it as a tiny laptop" mode... It's all things they pioneered.
This feature is also standard in existing folding phones. It's a pretty obvious feature tbh.
I thought the Pixel Fold didn't support this? No landscape keyboard?
Microsoft also had Windows XP Tablets [1] and also WinCE/PocketPC many years before.
While the Duo is more subtle for some changes, it might show us the "new" Apple where the innovation comes from fine-tuning and getting a mature product to the market.
At least from their presentation, it looks like they sat on the fence and looked at pretty much any good or bad thing that happened during the past years.
Seeing some reviews on the Samsung Fold for example, mentioned the speakers feeling weird as the audio orientation is fixed to the speakers location. Those little details make a difference.
I really hope modern Apple would go back to the details and nuances.
[1] https://betawiki.net/wiki/Windows_XP_Tablet_PC_Edition
> the "new" Apple where the innovation comes from fine-tuning
That's actually the old Apple. Before the iPhone (and after Jobs' return) it was their standard operation procedure: the iMac was a refined workstation, the AirPort was a refined WiFi router, the Time Machine was a refined NAS, the iPod was a refined MP3 player...
Even after the iPad, they mostly cranked out middling stuff like the airPods, all the way to the Vision. They would take whatever good idea was floating around the hardware market, give it a careful polish, and sell it at twice the price. And there is nothing wrong with that - constantly chasing revolutions is risky (see the Vision).
I'll criticize Apple with the best of them, but AirPods being "middling?"
Namewise, I feel like this is the original Duo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_Duo
Microsoft stole from Apple once before, so it's not like this hasn't been experienced in reverse.
Did we forget about the vaporware Courier?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmFM9l5RJSg
Apple continues to Microsoftify themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvX3laQlg14
The difference here is Microsoft didn't have to take the hardware and pivot a new OS onto it at the last minute.
Remember... the Duo was supposed to be a cursed Windows 10-esque device. They brought on Movial to do a pivot to Android, then bought out the porting team in early 2024 to keep working on what they should have released in preparation for the Duo 2 (which is what they actually NEEDED to sell as an Android device at the time, but flopped in doing so).
I returned mine in late 2023. It wasn't the best experience and I was missing out on things like NFC dearly.
I think the Duo looks great. And from the few hands on video I have seen I think the Apple presentation actually doesn't do it justice. There is no crease at all! [1]
On the note on this year's keynote. I can't be the only one who feels the whole vibe of the keynote changed. This isn't Tim Cook style keynote and John Ternus wasted no time to try and changed a few things already. I can't wait for John to further shake things up at Apple. But everything so far, all the small minor details suggest they are in the right direction.
[1] https://x.com/mweinbach/status/2097753099159138631?s=46
Agreed. I am excited to see what changes appear. I did enjoy the "One more thing" + smirk bit too.
It's so close to the "her" wallet thing that the main character pulls out to look at photos.
It's just too big, and too metal.
The form factor is good. I hope things move this direction.
More broadly, it's interesting that the movie has a beautiful future aesthetic that influenced tech most in the recent years. The muted colors with natural materials mixed with ubiquitous tech that was in the background of a human in a humane world where people mostly walk places. I feel like the AI company aesthetic barrowed a lot from that movie. Right down to their office furniture.
Now we just need to make a phone OS to put something like that on that isn't locked down. Forget the year of desktop linux. I am waiting for the year of phone linux. Android doesn't count.
I am 75, and have a ton of computer gear. I can imagine myself as an old man later in life, not wanting to do any programming, and just wanting a single digital device like a future version of this product. Let’s see what Apple has available in 10 years.
Its a 2200$ device which does the same thing as a 500$ tablet or any other option.
If people would at least use the power they buy... :|
i've been hearing this critique of new apple products for about two decades now and inevitably: - apple's product "does the same thing" as [device sold at 25% of the cost] AND - apple's product "does the thing" at a level of polish that's in an entirely different league from every competitor.
siri is the great exception here. jesus christ what a piece of shit
Thats not the point. There is a difference between someone spending a lot of money on compute and never use it vs. doing the same thing.
Its like buying a porsch and driving it always at 100km only.
There used to be a pretty big gap between iPhone and android in terms of polish. that gap keeps narrowing, but it is still there for sure.
Is there, though? The last few iOS releases have been pretty classless and inconsistent, imho.
The $500 tablet could be an Apple iPad
In fact iPads start at $429
You sound like ESR ranting about how Apple was doomed by Android back when the iPhone came out. He would rant and rant every time about how there was no conceivable way that Apple could survive. Somehow, Apple has managed to survive by the skin of it's teeth.../s
Nah, let's just throw a new web framework at them that consumes all their newfound computing capacity. Always leave em' wanting more
And liquid ass.
in 10 years any phone should be able to wirelessly stream it to any monitor / tv and plenty of those will be everywhere
We can do this now, but I don't think the user experience makes it worth it compared to casting. Bandwidth limitations require lower frame rates and responsiveness, which is fine for video but bad for interactive apps (most phones are native 120+hz + VRR_. But re-encoding video is (processor & battery life) expensive and probably lower quality than the original stream.
People who do this a lot probably just use a DV adapter (maybe it just works with USB-C, but I haven't tried it) for native apps, or casting for streaming video.
Right — I would have hoped a while ago already that we transcend past the notion of an endpoint device. A tablet, a laptop, or a phone should all just be entry points to access my one OS instance.
You could think this a bit further still, and have all kinds of devices offer an interface to nearby endpoints with a display or controls, establishing connectivity automatically.
Apple does this right now. I use AirPlay to extend one laptop into an older laptop so I can have 2 displays when I’m away from home
I mean you kinda can do that now.
>"kinda" - is a keyword. experience is abysmal, especially when it works but true desktop paradigm is not supported
I find Dex to be decent enough. Its biggest limitation is that it runs Android apps, but for doing stuff in a browser on a big screen and multitasking with some other apps that are tolerable to use that way it's pretty good.
I take it this is a joke? I am in my 50s and don’t see myself staring at screens for too long, let alone coding.
Edit: I don’t know of anyone 75 still coding outside of retired professors here and there. I am not trying to be an ageist. I just don’t think I will be physically capable when I am 75.
It doesn't seem like a joke?
>"I am in my 50s and don’t see myself staring at screens for too long, let alone coding."
I am 65 and still enjoy software development (not coding in particular) but decomposing business idea into software architecture and functionality. Decomposing is the part I really enjoy, the rest is a necessity but with AI that rest takes way less of my time than it used to.
I do not work for someone though. I develop products for clients or for my own business, was doing it all my life and was doing it from my own office for last 26 years. Not overworked either. Have enough time to enjoy life. Al in all very happy
$2000!
I really don't get why people spend so much on flagship phones! I tend to aim for $200 Motos for me and my family, and it feels like it's a 90%+ solution at a tenth of the price. I can still browse the web, text with people, make calls, listen to music, and take pictures. They still last for years, and if they get dropped and the screen cracks, it just means its time to upgrade. What am I missing here?
I started paying for phones with really good cameras once I had kids and I wanted to take lots of pictures with them. I definitely notice the quality difference in random, off-the-cuff photos (which is the vast majority), though if I have time to set up a bit, cheaper phones produce pictures that look the same to me.
Because 7 years from now, my iPhone will still have the latest OS and security updates. I also have the budget iPhone 16e. I also haven't broken a phone since I was 16. Not like cheap androids that are often abandonware by the device maker before they even hit the shelves.
It sucks. I wish that would change, but that is what made me switch from Android to iPhone after 12 years on Android. At the time, even flagship androids were lucky to get 2 years of OS updates and security fixes. Apparently Google and Samsung are going to support their devices longer, but I'll wait till they have a track record. But ultimately, an iPhone for me does come out cheaper over the lifetime of a device than cycling through cheap androids every 2 years.
People spend $30k extra to buy an Audi A6 instead of a Honda Accord daily.
So spending $1800 extra on a nice experience is still better than $30k extra.
I'm not getting a first generation of these things but if I could replace my iPad and my iPhone with this, the economics start to make more sense. Not for everyone, of course, but it'd be within my budget for replacing both devices.
I'm not sure the unfolded version will be big enough to truly replace my iPad Pro, though.
you're missing blue bubbles, computational photography, and FOMO. re: nothing actually important.
many people have a phone as their only device though, so great screens and cameras and everything else are easily rationalized behind the managable cost of carrier plan's indirect loan.
There is widespread crippling phone addiction in our society. That is one reason why people want premium flagship features. If you are going to stare at your phone for 3+ hours a day, spending more to get the latest and greatest makes sense.
Seriously though, for 2k you can get a good gaming PC even in today's market.
And the Apple case is $129.
Well, this one folds, so you get a much larger screen surface that still fits in your pocket. And $200 won't get you that from any vendor. And while the low end phones have gotten amazingly good, a flag ship will still have a much better camera, better screen, better battery etc. If that's worth the price is a decision everyone has to make for themselves.
Sidenote, I've not had a single one of my smartphones crack a screen since 2008 when I got my first smartphone, take that for what it's worth.
The camera, mostly.
There is going to be a lot of snark in the comments but this thing is genuinely beautiful lol
There has always been snark but I swear it has been really excessive lately.
Lot of Chinese bot farms / AI agents
There's also just a growing number of the simple contrarian perspective mixed with the growing "anything new is bad" cultural lens.
Tim Cook burned goodwill kissing Trump's ass like Elon and Zuck did.
The old "Apple is different!" attitude was replaced with a police state.
I'm not the market for it (I don't watch youtube, etc on phone), but I've seen some Samsung folds IRL and they are pretty amazing for video content.
This is a gorgeous design.
Its brutally expensive and probably doesn't fit in a pocket well.
Do you expect hn being an uncritical apple fanclub?
Both could be said of the iPhone Pro as well, which continues to sell and sell well. It's obvious to me there's a market for this stuff I'm not part of, same as the Vision Pro, and that's fine.
Beauty is subjective. That's not snark, that's reality. Nothing is "genuinely beautiful". You can't just call something beautiful and have everyone agree that it is in fact "beautiful". It's the most overused word in marketing.
Genuinely bonkers. I never thought they’d do this. Just seems so like a Xiaomi Xi7 Super Max Fold Z or something. But I have to say that when I used one of those Android folding phones it was quite cool to end up with a big screen in your pocket.
Just didn’t feel it was an Appleish product.
It looks quite well done, though I'm definitely not in the target demographic for this. I'm happy with my high-end desktop devices and shittier mobile devices. The last thing I want is for my phone to be more capable and incentivize me to use it more lol. I use mine to call, text, listen to music, check email, use the map, track workouts, and basic web browsing. I don't need more than that.
I'm in the exact same boat. I already gave Apple a bunch of money for something with a hinge this summer, and it's a Mac that can actually run a terminal, a proper desktop browser, or even something wacky like x86 games through a compatibility layer, etc.
No way I prioritize that kind of cash on something that only runs mobile-tier software.
It actually looks really nice; and I'd consider myself their target demographic conceptually. My last iPhone was a Pro for context.
But at a $2K starting price, plus likely another $200 for the storage size they really expect people to purchase, in this economy, it is so far outside of my price range it is dead to me.
Which is to say: Cool tech, but I've already dismissed it as something I want evaluate for my next phone just based on price alone.
That's maybe the real death-nail for folding phones: Price hasn't yet shifted to allow them to be mass market rather than enthusiast phones.
In my location I can order the Z Fold 8 for cheaper than the 18 Pro Max, and I can see in the price history that it has also been available for cheaper than the regular 18 Pro.
If I wouldn't at the moment focus on developing iOS apps, the Z Fold 8 would be very tempting.
Steve Jobs is folding in his grave.
This. He would have never approved a foldable phone, the iPhone Air, or the Vision Pro. Apple is back to throwing shit at the wall like they were in the 90s. Directionless. Visionless.
He launched the macbook air. Iphone air seems right up his alley.
Oh wow.
That looks extremely boring and unexciting. It doesn’t look like it’s Apple, it looks like Xiaoco Fold Z Duo 16.
*Xiaomi
apple is always "late to the party" and regularly takes existing tech, polishes it to a high standard of UX, and introduces a new paradigm for consumer tech products. if xiaomi has ever done that please let me know.
not to mention that chinese consumer goods companies are largely siloed to the east anyways
I agree but that’s still my point.
The thing looks totally unpolished. The corners are horrible, the UX looks subpar.
It’s the first time I feel like Apple totally rushed a new product without any real vision.
*Xiaoco, I invented this ref.
If pasteurized-vanilla-milk-toast-paste was a product.
All folding phones will converge to this.
I see some iPhone Pro Max buyers getting this simply because they paid around $1200 last year, then after trade-in ($885 for a 17PM), they could get into the Duo for $1,200.
If someone had that amount of disposable income last year, they might have it to throw at another upgrade this year.
Here's the Tech Specs page, which is slightly more hidden: https://www.apple.com/iphone-duo/specs/
Notably, the inner screen has a nano‑texture finish (which Apple normally upcharges significantly for), which implies it is glass.
Very strange how in the middle of a specs page for the device they a pitch there suggesting you get an Apple Card (formatted on the spec page as if it was actually a spec of this device) before continuing on with the rest of the specs/features.
I haven't looked, but am guessing the probably exists on other Apple specs pages.
in the keynote they explicitly said it was a polymer. Apple materials technology is really good, but it's not "folding glass" good.
I'll pass on this. Less moving parts appeals to me. I'm sure the HW and SW engineers at Apple did a great job, but, i like the current form factor.
My hope is that Apple getting in on this design will influence eBook makers to jump on the bandwagon.
Reminds me of the windows fold phone. ‘‘Twas the best of phones, but out of my price range at the time. Now I have nostalgia of windows phone, the best phone os that never was.
Even though I like the form factor I doubt I’d cash out 2k for it, seems like a waste just to spend more time on another screen.
for a first foldable iteration - apple has hit it out the park compared to other foldables on the market.
when the google & Samsung ones first came out they were plagued with problems.
but I think apple should've also had a foldable in the form of a razr ultra since they already have an iPhone air.
I guess we'll find out of there's much of a market for $2k phones. For the price one could get a regular iPhone and a decent iPad.
id rather buy both in a single device that i can carry in my pocket.
And have worse of both.
I've been out of the loop on foldable phones, and this is question is not related to specifically the iPhone Duo. How does it work that it doesn't show a crease in the middle? What's the breakthrough technology there? Or is there a visible crease?
We'll find out when the hands-on reviews start coming in. Right now, we're seeing Apple's carefully-curated press photos & renderings
I'll watch Marques when I want to get caught up on stuff like this, because he usually has a minimal fluff video on the subject.
For foldable phones, this might be a good pick to get caught up (5 months old, but minimal crease): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFUB_jL_XcM
On the Samsung Flip you can definitely see a crease—it's not super annoying but it's definitely there
And you’ll definitely feel it. Which is almost as annoying as seeing it.
the lcd is flexible, it doesn't fold in a sharp crease but uses a complicated hinge to roll it into a loose bend when closed. But maintaining a "crease-free" appearance after many use cycles seems to be a major challenge in this market.
On other phones it is visible, here we’ll see soon.
There will inevitably be a crease after a few weeks/months, as every folding phone has had. Apple is relying on Samsung's display tech, and Apple doesn't have better solutions than Samsung.
The reason it doesn't actively crease is because it's not like a piece of paper you press on to fold: the screen "rounds" itself, and as long as it doesn't go past a breakpoint (which is what the body of the phone prevents), it'll restore.
Probably true but they might have a better hinge, i.e. crease takes longer to appear due to superior folded geometry.
I'm surprised they weren't able to figure out face id and had to go back to touch id.
Phone’s already expensive enough and unless they have inner and outer faceid then they need touchid anyway
Apple often aggressively cuts scope like this on first generation products and then brings back the features in the future updates. Maybe it’s to provide a reason to upgrade, maybe it’s just good project management but iPhone Duo 2 having “dual FaceID” sounds like something Apple would do.
Look at the low end iPhone’s slowing getting better screens, TouchID, and then FaceID.
I feel like the aspect ratio is a lot better than existing phones. It's basically a tablet.
I have not much to say about the device, probably great. But the image selection for showcasing the camera improvements seems odd. As a non US person, i have the impression it tries to tailor its branding the most cliche type of peer groups. The result seems quite ridiculous
I tried the Samsung one with the same form factor in a store , and that is pretty nice. As someone traveling via plane or train, I can easily see myself using this and not carrying my tablet with me. However, just too expensive for my taste. I get a lot of new batteries for my current 12 pro for that price .
Foldable gimmicks aside the new materials and components sound really cool. How they have the screen layers that move freely seems innovative. The new ceramic they’re using for the outer shell/screen sounds great and I hope we see it in more of their devices:
“Ceramic Shield 2 on the outer display reduces glare and provides 3x better scratch resistance than the previous generation”
Foldables seem like Homer's car to me. It's a worse phone and a worse tablet all in one.
For reference:
https://media.wired.com/photos/593252a1edfced5820d0fa07/3:2/...
I love my iPhone SE 3rd gen. Perfect form factor. Neither too big nor too small to be able to do useful things on it. My hands and arms hurt using large phones. I am so used to using one hand to operate phones. My previous was iPhone SE 1st gen. Why do people need such a large phone in day to day life usage? Carry an iPad/tablet if you really need one.
> I am so used to using one hand to operate phones.
I even forgot about this. God damn it, I enjoyed the SE so much because of this.
or buy a product that is small and does both things
The transition effect from closed to open is so chef's kiss; the little things that set Apple apart.
Really want information about if there is a left-handed software setting for the new side-oriented buttons
Yes, I also was curious about left-handed users watching the demo, it seems very right-hand oriented at this time. Maybe there will be a toggle in Settings to switch some of the UI around, kind of like how Apple Watch asks which wrist it's wrapped around.
Right handed women (which is a giant market) are going to love this thing.
They do it for the watch, so it should be on their radar.
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49630931 (153 points, 107 comments)
It’s marked ip68, I wonder how they made the hinge water and dust proof
I’m not the target market for this phone at all, but I have to wonder how many people are going to take the 256 GB option for $1,999. It feels like that option only exists so they could show a starting price under $2,000.
The 512 GB version for $2,199 seems like option you’d really want as a minimum, and then you’d need to add AppleCare on top of that. Pricey!
What is it about Hacker News that draws only criticism and negativity? Is it even possible to build a community that's optimistic?
I get excited about this but that's because I want this... not because I need it.
What I actually need might be less of an iPhone and more of a nano than a duo. Something small and portable that doesn't make me spend every spare second on the phone.
Nice form factor.
I have a Samsung Fold 4. The front screen is too narrow and the folding screen doesn't open all the way anymore.
Not what I expected from a 1400€ phone.
Wow coming apple pencil support! That will be pretty awesome.
I thought so as well, but where do you put it when the phone is folded?
Time for pocket protectors to return! Geeks unite!
It was interesting to see no shots of the iPhone Duo being used as an actual phone and I think because it probably will look silly.
That being said, this is the device I always wanted. Something between an iPad and iPhone.
Does anyone use their phone “like an actual phone” anymore, as in held to their ear?
Most people I see out and about are either using face time, or inexplicably speaking in speakerphone and holding the flat, face up, with the bottom of the phone towards to their mouth in a weird awkward way, or they are using headphones, wired or wireless.
Anyone understand how cases will work for this?
I love this concept. I’d be able to stop carrying my laptop anr and just monitor and respond to things via SSH from my phone.
Why do these things exist?
I mean I do understand the appeal of the idea of folding smartphones, but I did not hear about any miracle material breakthroughs lately. So.. how can this exist? Why does it say that it is durable, when it has to be made out of materials that cannot be durable or else they wouldn't fold.
Did something change there and I'm just using stale data for that assessment, or is "durability" just not as valuable to the target audience?
I want the hardware, but with Linux! SteamOS or bazzite would be a good start..
That hinge mechanism looks like some pretty wild engineering to me.
Panos Panay must be so vindicated right now. The Surface Duo truly was ahead of its time.
A foldable iPad that can make phone calls?
Seems that way! Small detail, but I liked that the front display can be used for taking selfies with the main camera. Opens the door for slightly nicer selfies with the self or friends, versus stuck with front camera or shooting blind.
Do you think this would work well for coding?
The hardware is probably stellar and it must be an incredible reading device, but it's 2026 and I refuse to buy a device with a proprietary locked down software ecosystem.
I sympathize but you're literally looking at something an hour old and demanding that the economic and political realities that produced it change entirely.
I too have nothing to contribute to this post.
I agree with the sentiment and hopefully am using my last phone like that right now, but I’m also really hoping for very big advances for Linux phones before it comes time to upgrade. Right now they all seem to have serious drawbacks
Explore Pixel Grapheneos Lineageos or Fairphone Unlocked boot loader in pixel to load third party operating system. PinePhone for Linux Ubuntu touch
Exactly my feelings. I want something with custom ROM.
Considering only two major mobile platforms exist and both are proprietary locked down software ecosystems, I assume you have a PinePhone or something?
The pixel bootloader can be unlocked, also Android is significantly more of an open platform than iOS. I mean, stuff like Morphe exists on Android.
Very brave take about Apple /s
my beloved surface duo has returned <3
So where's the add-on that adds a thumbstick and some buttons so I can play DS games on it?
It looks very wide in the unfolded configuration.
same thought. I'm wondering how I'm gonna fit that in my pocket.
What do you mean? Would you want to unfold it, then put it in your pocket?
Interesting, but of no use as I can't replace its OS.
This will be another flop just like the iPhone Air. $2000 is f**ing crazy. A MacBook Pro is the same price haha. The storage is also shit 256gb??
I wonder if the iPhone Air was something like a pilot or beta test for the Duo. Getting things as thin as possible and shipping it before attaching two of them together. FWIW I feel there's more demand for foldables (Google/Samsung/Microsoft have demonstrated some) than there is for ultra thin phones with the tradeoffs those entail.
It took them only 7 years to catch up to Samsung!
10 years from now people will claim Apple invented folding smartphones or made them mainstream, just like they claim the same thing now about smartwatches.
interesting design, would like a phone that opens up with a touch-typeable keyboard / nub mouse (to be like a pocket laptop / umpc)
The top right selfie camera is a "courageous" choice.
Love the FaceTime camera behind the display
How will a case work on this thing?
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mkr64zm/a/iphone-duo-foli...
Addition for anyone scrolling: Link to a case on Apple's website for this.
Another addition: Another case without the kickstand
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mkr94zm/a/iphone-duo-case...
Oh gosh, it leaves the edge exposed. Crazy.
I would not, under any circumstance, use that official case.
My experience; I walked with an iPad Pro in my hand and I went to an interview, so I was a bit nervous. I let the iPad slip out of my hand. It had the official Apple cover, which leaves the edge exposed. So it falls, and drops such that it dents the side. This in turn cracks the display. I learned that Apple will not replace a display when the frame is damaged.
Do you think this is the first folding phone that ever existed? There are plenty of cases for folding phones, they've been around for many years already. Cases for this phone will likely work exactly the same.
I find the new watches more interesting
* https://www.wired.com/story/apple-watch-series-12-apple-watc...
it's a mistake though to demand an iphone to own the watch (can't configure it otherwise)
always held me back from ever buying an apple watch, don't want an iphone or ipad
Yeah my apple watch was pretty much a brick after I switched to android
Honestly I have owned two Apple Watches and you are missing nothing. They do look nice if that’s your taste, but they are extremely locked down and are pretty useless without an iPhone. I cannot cite even one application that is a killer app on the Apple Watch. Most apps are just a companion for the iOS part of the app.
YMMV, but I have a Watch for:
- checking the time (obviously)
- sleep tracking
- high heart rate warnings
- sleep and heart rate trends over time
- reviewing notifications or declining calls without grabbing phone
None of these are "killer apps" but they're conveniences. I like having an accurate source of time that I don't have to pick something up for. I like being able to track my sleep schedule and duration over time. I like to know when my heart rate is high so I can take steps to quiet down. I don't use many of the other features, maybe some sparingly, but I've never really used the Watch for its apps anyway. And I think only the last feature on my list, maybe the last two, needs iPhone.
I've had to go without my Watch for the better part of half a year because it's refurbished and I've been trying to diagnose an Apple Developer Program enrollment issue, and Apple won't tell me which device was previously used so I have to rule out everything I didn't purchase brand new, etc., but I still constantly feel its absence. It's just a convenience but it was a welcome one.
Note that the Watch did previously require an iPhone for initial setup, but it does not anymore.
Oh but I agree that the Apple Watch does all of that very well, I myself use it mostly for this.
I was just answering to gp : the Apple Watch pretty much only make sense if you own an iPhone. Else, you’d better buy any other smartwatch brand which will allow you to do much more than an Apple Watch without an iPhone.
> can't configure it otherwise
This has not been true for a while. Google "apple watch family setup". You just need to know someone with an iphone, once, to set it up. You can even set up cellular and use that for all watch internet needs, incl imessage, calls, facetim (audio), and weather & apps
I took the tethering demand as Apple chickening out from Watch doing to iPhone what iPhone did to iPod. Having used a cell plan watch for a while, I can almost do away with the full phone aside from it being a requirement to manage the watch.
$2000 is crazy talk
I am really quite disappointed this was not taken as an opportunity to make the default form factor smaller. Instead it seems like the folded mode is larger than a pro max, which is insane. I guess I'll just continue with the normal phones.
It seems they are segmenting the market on creator vs consumer between the pro and the duo, and betting the consumers want this form factor.
The pro max is like 6.9” screen and the duo is 5.4”? How is that bigger? Perhaps wider, but the thumb should have better reach and coverage of the screen.
iPhone 18 Pro: 2.83 inches wide
iPhone 18 Pro Max: 3.07 inches wide
iPhone Duo: 3.31 inches wide
my issue with phone sizes has never been their height, and has always been about resting in my palm.
https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/
samsung fold lookalike
I see the nano-texture is non-negotiable -- you won't get a clear screen with the Duo. I'm incredibly skeptical of this, and I'll have to check it out once it's in-store to see if that's even something I could tolerate in daily use. When I checked out a Studio Display with nano-texture, I could not stand it because of the shimmery rainbow grain, somewhat like staring through Scotch tape, and the general fuzziness of text. Not sure if that's improved, since Apple doesn't address flaws in their past products.
I'm not sure whether this counts substantive enough, but WOW that thing looks absolutely comical, lol
Naturally, I can already see people deeming it to be the most beautiful thing ever though.
Truly, I'll never understand Apple, nor their design language.
This would have been quite impressive just 5 years ago.
Buying this immediately and getting rid of my laptop, going full AI native to do all my work. Never sitting in front of a laptop again.
Congratulations on your self promotion into management.
The rounded corners look ridiculous on this phone. They also cut off a non-trivial part of the displayed content now.
Why is that area non-trivial? Do you use anything that has important content in the very corners? I've never seen anything that has important content in the areas this cuts off. I'm really curious about your use of corners!
It makes this area unusable if you want to show a page in a book reader, for example. Or a movie/video.
I also like to spectate games on Twitch/Youtube, and corners are often used for important stats.
"Short everything this guy has ever touched ..."
Annoying that they gave this thing touch id but not the non-folding version.
Restoring Touch ID is one of the things that might make me upgrade my existing iPhone before its time.
Let's wait and see how well this Touch ID works. My alarm bells went off when it was mentioned in conjunction with the Apple Watch also being able to unlock it.
if only it ran linux
It runs Unix but somehow I bet that doesn't really change anything.
I feel bad for iOS developers... Good luck supporting yet another format for your apps
>"breakthrough foldable design" - and what exact part of it is "breakthrough"? Do they have "invisible fold"?
It looks meh. Seems like Apple is following, no longer leading. Samsung feels more polished.
Go Apple, bring up the rear!
Can they even do anything new?
Apple has had the "perfect existing technology" business model for FIFTY years and people are still surprised.
I can't argue with that model, but in the past they actually did new and interesting things! The M series processor, the iPhone. Lets hope new CEO who is more of an engineer then the last one was ramps things up.
most of their innovations are in stuff that would be boring to go into detail with. They talked about the advancements in their A series processors (but you left that out), they talk about their complex layering to prevent a crease from forming, they talk about the dynamic audio. Love em or hate em but you cant say they arent doing new things.
why is Apple releasing new products when Siri is falling so short compared to the industry. Make Siri amazing would improve every apple product immensely.
I’m sure I read something about NEW SIRI somewhere. Siri isn’t just falling short, it seems to be getting actively and progressively more useless. My HomePod speakers take about 10 seconds to respond now and often get things wrong.
The new iOS rebrands Gemini as Siri - and from all accounts of the public beta, it's pretty decent, and an enormous upgrade from the current/old Siri.
Siri is slowly getting better, but Apple's never been about matching the industry. They've always been about being the best Apple they can be. (They haven't followed this perfectly, but they keep re-learning it's the way, every time someone tries to mess with the formula.)
Looks like an Android. Couldn't frame it like the iconic notch / dynamic island. Not immediately recognizable. Arrived too late.
Less space than a Nomad? Lame?
Ignoring your other criticism and focusing just on one: How do you justify your claim that it arrived too late? What have people moved onto past foldable phones, in your view?