I was actually thinking about this yesterday. A government's function is analogous to a parent, i.e. protecting the people it's responsible is priority #1. If it consistently refuses to do that, then that's not quite a government anymore, by definition.
I'm British, left leaning and married to an immigrant. The posts themselves don't come across as racist.
It's a fact in British politics we refuse to publish crime stats per ethnicity, but the Danes do, and it's fairly obvious that certain types of immigration aren't good for your society.
Of course, these are cultural problems usually linked to specific regions and socioeconomic backgrounds rather than actually race related, but we've been in a weird space for many years where it's racist to discuss the problems, and ergo when you do find people willing to discuss them, they do tend to be actually racist.
Which makes it hard to jump to defend DHH here, because you're unsure what you're missing. The sad thing is, the denial drives actual racism, because it's the only outlet to actually discuss the problems.
For those not aware, British population growth is about 10m in 20 years, largely immigration ( Births are below replacement rate ) and largely pushed to depress wages and expand the tax base to fund pensioners. It's more class warfare than race related.
You're leaving out the endorsement of noted racist Tommy Robinson here, whose raison d'être is to foment racial hatred. If you're married to an immigrant, I would have thought the end of the slippery slope would be as concerning to you as it is to me being married to a non-white person.
In Germany we have a term "besorgte Bürger" - concerned citizens. They just share their concerns. Concerns about all the brown people. Immigrants. Crime. Just sharing concerns.
But the blog posts by DHH that are being linked here actually go fully beyond that. They explicitly define native to mean white. No matter how many generations your family has been here, if you're not ethnically white, you are no native of this country. In his own words.
That's as explicitly racist as you can be. I honestly was not expecting this when I started reading. I was expecting the usual dog whistles and trolling. But no, DHH is posting full blown endorsements of the person who created several explicitly fascist and racist organizations in the UK (Tommy Robbinson).
What are you defending here? This is the type of stuff DHH writes:
"These are two situations cut from the same cloth of ideology. Whether it's wolves or gypsies, you can't just let the problems get out of hand. You have to act. You have to protect the sheep. Standing idly by while your livestock is devoured by predators or your neighborhood is taken over by migrants is a pathetic abdication of any functioning society's most basic duty to its citizens.
When wolves get out of control, you shoot them. When gypsies take over public spaces, you deport them. This isn't hard, it isn't cruel. It's the basic logic of self-preservation."
Edit: Mind you, this is coming from someone who 100% believes that concerns about racism has prevented some uncomfortable conversations and investigations that need to happen. But pretending like only people on the far-right and people like DHH are willing to say this is just wrong. This is also the stated outcome of official inquiries of the UK government.
Yeah that’s pretty bad. I’m not defending anything really but it’s one of those situations i think where everyone is just trying to do what they think is right, i don’t think either side is intentionally doing evil or whatever.
people are confusing dumb things, I don’t think we’ll ever change the mind of either side of the debate and so I don’t really see the point in even engaging with it anymore. in this case i find it kinda funny that people would choose software over the political opinions of its authors, or even more extreme based on how the vendors of that software donate their profits...
What will we do if it turns out the author of some “load bearing” bit of oss has fringe political beliefs? Where does it end? Are we sure the people who made our kitchen spoon aren’t klansmen?
Is the idea “Quick everyone, we should write a replacement that conforms to the majority view!”
It all just seems so intolerant. Let people be people, if they have stupid opinions whatever they’re theirs not ours.
At this point, the word "racism" was misused so much, that its meaning is completely lost. People use it to throw dirt at the ones they don't like, like monkeys throwing feces at each other.
It's wrong because you're labeling the whole ethnic group. But since you believe in "uncomfortable truths", I'm sure youre willing to start calling the Epstein pedophile ring white rapist pedophiles? Damn those whites raping our children!
I know plenty of british asians, whom i consider my friends, who aren’t pedophiles — where does any of this say it applies to everyone? Of course it doesn’t. It sounds a lot like the person with race issues is you.
Even ignoring Hansson's racism and general assholery, can Linux users please start treating OSes like infrastructure and not like costumes? Just use Mint (or Fedora if feeling adventurous) on PCs and Debian on servers. Nobody can build anything if the ground keeps shifting.
I don't treat OSes like costumes, but I don't see the problem with people doing it? Many times it feels like it's people being enthusiastic about Linux, jumping from one distro to the other, and commenting on which one they prefer. Reminds me of how I was "tuning" my Windows when I was a teenager, installing all kinds of addons that made it "look cool".
> Nobody can build anything if the ground keeps shifting.
I don't see the ground shifting. Most distros are just a skin on top of a mainstream distro (Omarchy is apparently just Arch).
Of course there are many things in the Linux world: people use a variety init systems (systemd, openrc, runit, s6, ...), libc (glibc, musl, ...), userlands (gnu, busybox, ...), display servers (x11, wayland), window managers (gnome, kde, cinnamon, xfce, sway, i3, ...), display managers, sound servers, package managers, file systems, bootloaders, shells, ...
That's just part of being Linux, and people having the freedom to use whatever they want. Sure, most people are not technically capable of building their distro of choice, so they jump between existing wrapper-distros like Omarchy. And that's part of the deal as well.
I was actually thinking about this yesterday. A government's function is analogous to a parent, i.e. protecting the people it's responsible is priority #1. If it consistently refuses to do that, then that's not quite a government anymore, by definition.
Oh like a nanny, or a big brother?
The mass surveillance question is orthogonal, and evidently didn't help in this case.
How is posting an article about the sexual exploitation of minors in the UK “hideously racist”?
Is it because the perpetrators in that case are, majority wise from one ethnic background?
There are uncomfortable truths in the world, it sucks.
I'm British, left leaning and married to an immigrant. The posts themselves don't come across as racist.
It's a fact in British politics we refuse to publish crime stats per ethnicity, but the Danes do, and it's fairly obvious that certain types of immigration aren't good for your society.
Of course, these are cultural problems usually linked to specific regions and socioeconomic backgrounds rather than actually race related, but we've been in a weird space for many years where it's racist to discuss the problems, and ergo when you do find people willing to discuss them, they do tend to be actually racist.
Which makes it hard to jump to defend DHH here, because you're unsure what you're missing. The sad thing is, the denial drives actual racism, because it's the only outlet to actually discuss the problems.
For those not aware, British population growth is about 10m in 20 years, largely immigration ( Births are below replacement rate ) and largely pushed to depress wages and expand the tax base to fund pensioners. It's more class warfare than race related.
You're leaving out the endorsement of noted racist Tommy Robinson here, whose raison d'être is to foment racial hatred. If you're married to an immigrant, I would have thought the end of the slippery slope would be as concerning to you as it is to me being married to a non-white person.
I am concerned actually, and Tommy is a racist.
I guess my question there is, is DHH ignorant to who Tommy really is, or is it a full endorsement.
In Germany we have a term "besorgte Bürger" - concerned citizens. They just share their concerns. Concerns about all the brown people. Immigrants. Crime. Just sharing concerns.
But the blog posts by DHH that are being linked here actually go fully beyond that. They explicitly define native to mean white. No matter how many generations your family has been here, if you're not ethnically white, you are no native of this country. In his own words.
That's as explicitly racist as you can be. I honestly was not expecting this when I started reading. I was expecting the usual dog whistles and trolling. But no, DHH is posting full blown endorsements of the person who created several explicitly fascist and racist organizations in the UK (Tommy Robbinson).
What are you defending here? This is the type of stuff DHH writes:
"These are two situations cut from the same cloth of ideology. Whether it's wolves or gypsies, you can't just let the problems get out of hand. You have to act. You have to protect the sheep. Standing idly by while your livestock is devoured by predators or your neighborhood is taken over by migrants is a pathetic abdication of any functioning society's most basic duty to its citizens.
When wolves get out of control, you shoot them. When gypsies take over public spaces, you deport them. This isn't hard, it isn't cruel. It's the basic logic of self-preservation."
Edit: Mind you, this is coming from someone who 100% believes that concerns about racism has prevented some uncomfortable conversations and investigations that need to happen. But pretending like only people on the far-right and people like DHH are willing to say this is just wrong. This is also the stated outcome of official inquiries of the UK government.
Yeah that’s pretty bad. I’m not defending anything really but it’s one of those situations i think where everyone is just trying to do what they think is right, i don’t think either side is intentionally doing evil or whatever.
people are confusing dumb things, I don’t think we’ll ever change the mind of either side of the debate and so I don’t really see the point in even engaging with it anymore. in this case i find it kinda funny that people would choose software over the political opinions of its authors, or even more extreme based on how the vendors of that software donate their profits...
What will we do if it turns out the author of some “load bearing” bit of oss has fringe political beliefs? Where does it end? Are we sure the people who made our kitchen spoon aren’t klansmen?
Is the idea “Quick everyone, we should write a replacement that conforms to the majority view!”
It all just seems so intolerant. Let people be people, if they have stupid opinions whatever they’re theirs not ours.
You make solid points to be fair.
At this point, the word "racism" was misused so much, that its meaning is completely lost. People use it to throw dirt at the ones they don't like, like monkeys throwing feces at each other.
It's wrong because you're labeling the whole ethnic group. But since you believe in "uncomfortable truths", I'm sure youre willing to start calling the Epstein pedophile ring white rapist pedophiles? Damn those whites raping our children!
The brits would like to forget about Jimmy Savile.
I know plenty of british asians, whom i consider my friends, who aren’t pedophiles — where does any of this say it applies to everyone? Of course it doesn’t. It sounds a lot like the person with race issues is you.
Even ignoring Hansson's racism and general assholery, can Linux users please start treating OSes like infrastructure and not like costumes? Just use Mint (or Fedora if feeling adventurous) on PCs and Debian on servers. Nobody can build anything if the ground keeps shifting.
I don't treat OSes like costumes, but I don't see the problem with people doing it? Many times it feels like it's people being enthusiastic about Linux, jumping from one distro to the other, and commenting on which one they prefer. Reminds me of how I was "tuning" my Windows when I was a teenager, installing all kinds of addons that made it "look cool".
> Nobody can build anything if the ground keeps shifting.
I don't see the ground shifting. Most distros are just a skin on top of a mainstream distro (Omarchy is apparently just Arch).
Of course there are many things in the Linux world: people use a variety init systems (systemd, openrc, runit, s6, ...), libc (glibc, musl, ...), userlands (gnu, busybox, ...), display servers (x11, wayland), window managers (gnome, kde, cinnamon, xfce, sway, i3, ...), display managers, sound servers, package managers, file systems, bootloaders, shells, ...
That's just part of being Linux, and people having the freedom to use whatever they want. Sure, most people are not technically capable of building their distro of choice, so they jump between existing wrapper-distros like Omarchy. And that's part of the deal as well.
gibberish.
I don't know. I read the article and it feels to me the author is a bigger problem than his attack target.
News at 11.