Elevators

140 points | by Jrh0203 an hour ago

46 comments

  • reader9274 a few seconds ago

    I feel like most cases of wait times are due to elevators "waiting" empty in the wrong floor. They either all wait in the bottom floor, or all wait where they were last left at. Would be better if their waiting floors were distributed throughout the floors so that first response is fast.

  • hermanschaaf 19 minutes ago

    Hah, I thought a lot about this problem while developing Sky Lobby, a mobile game (iOS / Android) about controlling and automating elevators.

    In the game, some of the elevators are automated, and I wanted to choose an algorithm that best aligned with what players would expect an elevator to do. I ended up going with something close to LOOK, which (as the article states) is mostly what people expect. Except in case of ambiguity, I had it prioritise floors that have been waiting longer, to improve the p90, which is important in the game.

    But now, add in these challenges:

    - double-deck cabs (where attached cabs cover two floors at once)

    - transfer floors between shafts

    - express shafts

    and the best (or at least, most expected) algorithm becomes much less obvious! I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out the best one.

    Luckily I was in charge of a game, not a real elevator system, so I just had to find a heuristic that was good-enough, and could tweak the rules to let players manually override the elevator's plan if they don't like where it's going. This seems to have satisfied most players.

      jamies 8 minutes ago

      Thanks for sharing this. I was just commenting about the challenge of making a fun elevator sim game. This looks great -- can't wait to play with it this weekend!

  • brandonpelfrey 34 minutes ago

    For folks that have never seen elevator scheduling the game: https://play.elevatorsaga.com/ Enjoy this rabbit hole :D

      alanwreath 2 minutes ago

      I wish there were more games like this. It’s such a simple premise but so satisfying difficult after each level. And it even has a bit of randomish failure which makes for even more.

      grep_it 16 minutes ago

      I always come back to this game whenever I'm at a hotel for a conference waiting for the elevator.

      perryprog 5 minutes ago

      Wow, I just came here to comment that I've always wondered if a game where you have to program an elevator scheduler would be any fun. I thought surely no-one's thought to make that before, too! Glad to be proven wrong.

  • niklasrde a minute ago

    I wonder how a TWIN system with 2 cars per shaft factors in here: https://www.tkelevator.com/us-en/products/elevators/all-elev...

    That will need planning and assignment I guess? But at what load figures does it become more efficient?

  • orliesaurus 36 minutes ago

    Oh my god, every time I'm waiting for the elevator, I think of how annoying it must be to be someone who's building the algorithm to make sure that you minimize the amount of wait times between picking up people and taking them to their destination. Then I also wonder if the people who apply the logic and program the logic into the elevators are actually evil sadists that are doing it on purpose to make us wait longer enough and suffer a little extra.

      neutronicus 21 minutes ago

      They might have other objective functions like wear-and-tear on the elevators, total energy usage, or something

  • olex 24 minutes ago

    The biggest problem I always have with elevators is not the algorithm, it's the people seemingly being unable to grasp the concept of pressing either the up or the down request button, depending on where they want to go. Almost always I find someone will press both, because "then the elevator comes faster". Completely ignoring the fact that they end up going the wrong way first half the time, and adding an unnecessary halt for everyone already in there. How hard can it be to understand?..

      Georgelemental 21 minutes ago

      I don't think I've ever seen someone do that

        summermusic 11 minutes ago

        I haven't ever seen anyone do this in the United States, but I saw it in China and Italy.

        moritzwarhier 18 minutes ago

        Good for you, maybe somewhere that's the secret developer key combination for triggering the emergency brake from outside?

      trivo 19 minutes ago

      And then when the elevator door opens, they ask the people inside: "Are you going up or down?" There's an arrow showing that, for Christ's sake.

  • tgsovlerkhgsel 3 minutes ago

    Is there a comprehensive overview of a) multi-bank elevator algorithms that are out there, b) the config parameters that the elevator tech/company can set on an elevator system?

    For example, some elevators allow adjusting the door closing/opening speeds etc., I'd be curious what other things can be adjusted.

  • geephroh 27 minutes ago

    Slightly OT, but this reminded me of Colson Whitehead's _The Intuitionist_[1], an amazing speculative mystery novel about two dueling schools of elevator inspection philosophies: the Empiricists and the Intuitionists.

    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intuitionist

  • jamies 10 minutes ago

    This is absolute catnip to me. Fantastic job to the author! It really scratches the itch of wanting to understand elevator dispatch algos!

    I want something similar for advanced sensor stop lights...

    I've long toyed with creating an elevator simulator game, but every time I build a prototype I realize it's not that fun to manually dispatch elevators, and playing with algos only goes so far! Elevator Saga is great for the programming side: https://play.elevatorsaga.com/

  • coop57 9 minutes ago

    You have no idea how excited I was to see this article today. I've long been fascinated with elevators and the algorithms that control them. Thank you!

  • realaccfromPL 5 minutes ago

    I absolutely adore this, I am always trying to guess whichever elevator will come in first in large crowded buildings. Thanks for this article.

  • Waterluvian 28 minutes ago

    Makes me want to play Sim Tower again.

    There’s something so satisfying about watching a machine just dutifully work through queued tasks like this.

  • OJFord 14 minutes ago

    I think this comparison is also assuming the distribution of request & requested floor is uniform? When actually near pairs are less likely (I'll just take the stairs) than bottom to top, so even analysing it is more complex than at first glance.

  • clarkmoody 34 minutes ago

    One of the most frustrating assignments[1] (2011) in my computer science education was trying to build a better mousetrap for elevator control.

    [1]: https://clarkmoody.com/Moody_AgentBasedElevatorControl.pdf

  • jihadjihad 29 minutes ago

    In a similar vein, there was an interesting discussion [0] a while back about elevator buttons [1] and how timing for door close/open works, along with a bit of the history and regulations that go into them.

    0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35152341

    1: https://computer.rip/2023-03-13-the-door-close-button.html

  • teepo 24 minutes ago

    I've never really liked Destination Dispatch elevators. Besides struggling to find the car I've been assigned to, sometimes you really have to hustle across the lobby to catch it. Then you also run into visitors that assume it's a normal car and can hit a floor button when the get in, only to realize they've walked into a car without buttons.

      quietsegfault 18 minutes ago

      What makes me more peeved about destination dispatch elevators are people who aren't used to them, and all pile into an elevator without hitting a floor, thinking one input is enough for everyone. Then, a totally full elevator stops at intermediate floors to pick up callers, but there's no room to get in. If everyone put the floor in as they arrive to the elevator lobby, then the elevator would know how many people are in the elevator and won't overfill them.

        avidiax 11 minutes ago

        The elevators I've seen have a "group call" feature slightly hidden in the menu.

  • sambaumann 36 minutes ago

    This reminds me of elevator saga (https://play.elevatorsaga.com/) - little programming game where you have to program elevator schedules.

  • paxys 25 minutes ago

    My biggest pet peeve is elevator banks where they don’t make some number of idle elevators automatically come back to the lobby. Half your traffic is over there! Everyone coming in has to wait an extra minute or two because all your elevators were chilling on the 35th floor and above.

      mapmeld 16 minutes ago

      My apartment building is replacing the elevators, and someone on staff revealed that the first renovated elevator is intended to pick up only from the lobby (i.e. if you summon an elevator from the 10th floor, one of the others will come). This has caused some grumbling or calling it an "express elevator". In an apartment it really is mostly trips to many floors from the lobby. The only time this maybe would be inconvenient might be in the morning commute, when fewer people are re-entering.

  • zatkin 24 minutes ago

    I think a small improvement that could be made is to have the dot representing the person be colored the same as a dot on each floor, which would obviate the destination floor for each individual.

      soupspaces 18 minutes ago

      Yes the visualization is great but overused and could also use a stop button. I would have also liked to see different kinds of plots.

  • jp191919 28 minutes ago

    Reminds of something I haven't thought about in a very long time... SimTower

  • proee 21 minutes ago

    Don't forget the executive elevator algorithm (EEA), which uses a priority interrupt to take passengers directly to the top floor.

      mekdoonggi 15 minutes ago

      Also need to make sure you increase the speed going past floors 4 and 13 to avoid bad luck.

  • itunpredictable 28 minutes ago

    I didn't realize that neal.fun had some competition.

  • shadeslayer_ 37 minutes ago

    This article gives me war flashbacks about a particularly irritating OO design interview from 5 years ago.

  • mito88 13 minutes ago

    did he factor in the lifting speed?

  • gosub100 34 minutes ago

    Maybe I missed it, but the algorithm should also redistribute empty elevators that stop too closely to each other.

  • quietsegfault 20 minutes ago

    I love elevator simulations.

  • moralestapia 22 minutes ago

    >All this technology just to underperform the S&P

    My takeaway is that the benefit of using a much more complex algorithm is marginal.

  • cubefox 6 minutes ago

    > Everyone has shared the frustration of waiting for an elevator that never seems to arrive.

    Really? Maybe I'm lucky I never had to deal a lot with elevators.

  • jmyeet 31 minutes ago

    This is a good article. It reminds me of a story.

    At a previous employer we had heteregenous elevators. In one bank, some went to the lower half of floors only while others went to all and the company installed a "smart" elevator system. I kind of became known because I was constantly yelling about this system in the feedback group because I hate "smart" elevators and and (IMHO) they just don't work. What actually works is express elevators and sky lobbies.

    This article covers one of the deficiencies this system had: full elevators. For example, you'd want to go down and an elevator would skip your floor because another had already been assigned. That one would show up full and you couldn't go down. Down wasn't so bad because the stairs weren't a bad option but up was terrible. Going up a few floors was fine. Going up 20 was... a bigger issue.

    Back in the day we had elevator operators and people in the lobby during the morning rush who would shepherd people into particular elevators. I actually think this system works way better than anything technology has come up with. Even if you nail the implementation (and I've never experienced elevators that have), people don't read and will just get into elevators anyway.

    Anyway the article says that generally speaking on smaller banks simple up and down buttons work best. I absolutely agree.

    There's a deeper issue here though and that is solutions looking for a problem. Nobody is making money from up and down buttons. They are fromn selling smart elevator solutions. And you see this everywhere in life. It basically devolves into rent-seeking behavior. Salespeople wine and dine a couple of people responsible for making decisions and then make bank on selling something nobody wants or needs as well as the constant maintenance and updates.

      marcosdumay 23 minutes ago

      > people in the lobby during the morning rush who would shepherd people into particular elevators

      That's what the no-button elevators with the kiosk does.