> Japanese passengers “are going to get out of the aircraft,” Mr Careen said, while travellers in North America appear most likely to delay evacuating to retrieve their belongings.
I’d speculate that Japanese passengers expect to promptly get their stuff back while North Americans know they are effectively throwing it in the garbage, and so are more tempted to grab a few things.
I don’t think people should grab their bags in an emergency, but it’s amazing to me that airlines act like they can’t even understand why people do. It feels like common sense about a low trust society, and airlines do nothing whatsoever to engender trust otherwise.
Very much agree. I would have no expectation of getting anything back, and people travel with some of their most important items: passports, visas, credit cards, laptops, phones.
Unless I actually think I'm going to die, i.e. if it feels like it's more cautionary, I'd be very tempted to grab my essentials.
Trust is absolutely the thing that needs to be built. Trust that I'm going to be taken care of, trust that I'm not going to have visa issues without any ID, trust that I'm going to be compensated, fast, if I don't get my expensive possessions back.
Even in emergency situations, the idea that the best outcome for passengers is achieved when they leave everything behind does involve placing trust in the crew and the authorities around the situation. If you're in a situation where that trust is no longer there, ignoring rules and going for a bag can make sense, which is one of the reasons why that trust is important.
I'd prefer not to go into extensive detail, but I was once a passenger involved in a shipwreck where I did not trust the crew or the country we were in, and it was a somewhat similar situation of needing to get off the ship immediately, with the implication that everything should be left behind.
Disregarding that and instead grabbing my small backpack with a satellite phone and cell phone, a GPS system and camera, my passport, a jacket, and similar items was, in hindsight, a very good decision. Without that bag, we would have been in a very sketchy situation, entirely under the control of the crew and shipowner, in a corrupt country where the shipowner was well-connected.
Depending on the situation, it's not necessarily a matter of compensation for expensive possessions. Do you have any means of outside communication that isn't controlled by a group that might not have your best interests in mind? Do you have any alternative (eg, communication, documentation, or means of payment) if they decide to make your treatment dependent on what you are willing to sign, or if they decide to simply abandon you, or worse? Even during the emergency itself: is the emergency equipment that is supposed to be there going to be there? Is it going to be functional? Do you trust the crew to actually help you?
With all that said: going for an overhead bag in an emergency on a plane is ridiculous and dangerous; if something is so critical, it would make more sense to have it in a pocket (to be fully compliant), or at least immediately accessible in a small bag.
I see your point, I do agree that it's best to go into any situation assuming good faith. The problem is that the airline industry and those sorts of big corporations have already proven that they do not generally act in good faith (at least in the countries I have experience with – UK, AU, US). They have already lost the trust and the responsibility is on them to rebuild it.
> speculate that Japanese passengers expect to promptly get their stuff back while North Americans know they are effectively throwing it in the garbage, and so are more tempted to grab a few things
If this behaviour were isolated, this hypothesis would make sense. Given it exists in a broader context of Japanese altruism, I’d say it’s just a fitness advantage to having a high-trust, rule-following society.
i would bet you they would still not grab bags even if they had no credible reason to think they would get it back.a significant minority of Americans are quite selfish/individualistic
I’m not a fan of nanny-state policies, but I would support a law that imposes grave consequences for airline passengers found to be in possession of personal baggage following an evacuation.
Because seconds count and lives are on the line, passengers should be trained to treat baggage as if it is radioactive during an evacuation.
> would support a law that imposes grave consequences for airline passengers found to be in possession of personal baggage following an evacuation
My preference would be for a massive fine and one-year flight ban for the first offence, and triple that fine plus one year in jail plus lifetime for a second offence.
In all cases, you’re personally responsible for your injuries and those of anyone behind you.
Aren't they risking everyone else's lives by blocking the aisle? It could be made a serious crime - it's easy to see who keeps their bags.
Lock the overheads? Maybe that will cause delay if people who keep trying.
Also, the same people probably take their under-seat bags. I wonder if that causes delay - maybe it takes up space in the aisle, which would seem to be a bottleneck.
Agree, If you're caught running with a bag from a plane (as we've seen on video): zero eligibility for "survivor benefits", $50,000 fine for endangerment, plus 100% liability for any injuries of those behind you.
Does anyone know what the research says? I found a few things, but I don't know if they represent the consensus, etc. Maybe it's in airline regulations somewhere?
If there is an aircraft evacuation and someone is getting their bag out of the carry-on, the proper response is punching them in the face and throwing them onto the ground so people can step over (or on) them.
With seat pitches so tight these days, the idea that an evacuation can be done by unprepared people in 90 seconds is a pipedream, even before taking into consideration people trying to get their luggage.
> the proper response is punching them in the face and throwing them onto the ground so people can step over (or on) them
The proper response to anyone doing this is jail time and a flight ban. The person with a bag delayed everyone by seconds. The person having an emotional breakdown will cost folks minutes.
Don't make this an emergency-only thing. It needs to be every flight during takeoff and landing. Otherwise people will be confused why they can't open the bin during evacuation and fight with the attendants, etc.
A more comprehensive set of policy changes:
* All tickets required to include one checked bag in the fare. Less pressure on overhead bin space and less tendency to have one big bag instead of a personal item with important documents.
* Overhead bins lock during takeoff and landing. And it needs to be a sturdy lock, not something that a lunatic can pry open and entice the entire plane into trying to break their stuff out.
* Fine passengers that take luggage during an evacuation. $5k + the value of the item. That makes it so that even people with valuables should leave them behind. And people complaining about their $5200 fine will be mocked for risking everyone's lives for $200.
* Evacuation tests for new seating arrangements must assume that all personal items and accessible overhead items will be taken unless that is rendered impossible by policy or locks.
Is it not simple? Tell the passengers they'll be able to get their bags back during an emergency. Don't just say "leave your bags" - say "leave your bags, you'll get them back later". After drilling into passengers nonstop to never leave their bags unattended is it any surprise passengers don't leave their bags unattended? No, it isn't.
Lives are at stake; it doesn't matter if you get your bags back and that isn't hard to understand. Also, if the plane is on fire, you're probably not getting them back.
> After drilling into passengers nonstop to never leave their bags unattended is it any surprise passengers don't leave their bags unattended?
That's while going to your flight in an airport. I don't think anyone confuses the situations.
Do we need to wait for a tragedy before we do something? Good on the airlines and regulators for recognizing a burgeoning problem and taking action before (hopefully) it leads to unnecessary deaths.
You have something like 45s-90s to get off an airplane and sprint for your life, I've heard. (If anyone has a source, post it). Keep your phone, passport, and your keys in your pockets, and your shoes on your feet during taxi, takeoff, landing. Do not wear flip flops on airlines (you can't run in them) and they provide zero fire protection if you have to run across flaming ground. Everything is replaceable.
I hope it never comes to it, but I would absolutely "move" a person towards the exit, if needed, if they stopped to get their bag, only to save the lives of everyone else.
> Japanese passengers “are going to get out of the aircraft,” Mr Careen said, while travellers in North America appear most likely to delay evacuating to retrieve their belongings.
I’d speculate that Japanese passengers expect to promptly get their stuff back while North Americans know they are effectively throwing it in the garbage, and so are more tempted to grab a few things.
I don’t think people should grab their bags in an emergency, but it’s amazing to me that airlines act like they can’t even understand why people do. It feels like common sense about a low trust society, and airlines do nothing whatsoever to engender trust otherwise.
[delayed]
Very much agree. I would have no expectation of getting anything back, and people travel with some of their most important items: passports, visas, credit cards, laptops, phones.
Unless I actually think I'm going to die, i.e. if it feels like it's more cautionary, I'd be very tempted to grab my essentials.
Trust is absolutely the thing that needs to be built. Trust that I'm going to be taken care of, trust that I'm not going to have visa issues without any ID, trust that I'm going to be compensated, fast, if I don't get my expensive possessions back.
Even in emergency situations, the idea that the best outcome for passengers is achieved when they leave everything behind does involve placing trust in the crew and the authorities around the situation. If you're in a situation where that trust is no longer there, ignoring rules and going for a bag can make sense, which is one of the reasons why that trust is important.
I'd prefer not to go into extensive detail, but I was once a passenger involved in a shipwreck where I did not trust the crew or the country we were in, and it was a somewhat similar situation of needing to get off the ship immediately, with the implication that everything should be left behind.
Disregarding that and instead grabbing my small backpack with a satellite phone and cell phone, a GPS system and camera, my passport, a jacket, and similar items was, in hindsight, a very good decision. Without that bag, we would have been in a very sketchy situation, entirely under the control of the crew and shipowner, in a corrupt country where the shipowner was well-connected.
Depending on the situation, it's not necessarily a matter of compensation for expensive possessions. Do you have any means of outside communication that isn't controlled by a group that might not have your best interests in mind? Do you have any alternative (eg, communication, documentation, or means of payment) if they decide to make your treatment dependent on what you are willing to sign, or if they decide to simply abandon you, or worse? Even during the emergency itself: is the emergency equipment that is supposed to be there going to be there? Is it going to be functional? Do you trust the crew to actually help you?
With all that said: going for an overhead bag in an emergency on a plane is ridiculous and dangerous; if something is so critical, it would make more sense to have it in a pocket (to be fully compliant), or at least immediately accessible in a small bag.
If you want trust, in any situation, it starts with you: Be trustworthy; lead others and set an example.
> Unless I actually think I'm going to die ...
I think those are the situations they are talking about.
I see your point, I do agree that it's best to go into any situation assuming good faith. The problem is that the airline industry and those sorts of big corporations have already proven that they do not generally act in good faith (at least in the countries I have experience with – UK, AU, US). They have already lost the trust and the responsibility is on them to rebuild it.
The key to understanding trust It’s earned. Full stop. If it’s not earned, it’s not trust.
> speculate that Japanese passengers expect to promptly get their stuff back while North Americans know they are effectively throwing it in the garbage, and so are more tempted to grab a few things
If this behaviour were isolated, this hypothesis would make sense. Given it exists in a broader context of Japanese altruism, I’d say it’s just a fitness advantage to having a high-trust, rule-following society.
> Japanese passengers expect to promptly get their stuff back while North Americans know they are effectively throwing it in the garbage
If the plane has crashed and people are fleeing for their lives, I doubt people expect to get their bags back.
i would bet you they would still not grab bags even if they had no credible reason to think they would get it back.a significant minority of Americans are quite selfish/individualistic
I’m not a fan of nanny-state policies, but I would support a law that imposes grave consequences for airline passengers found to be in possession of personal baggage following an evacuation.
Because seconds count and lives are on the line, passengers should be trained to treat baggage as if it is radioactive during an evacuation.
> would support a law that imposes grave consequences for airline passengers found to be in possession of personal baggage following an evacuation
My preference would be for a massive fine and one-year flight ban for the first offence, and triple that fine plus one year in jail plus lifetime for a second offence.
In all cases, you’re personally responsible for your injuries and those of anyone behind you.
Aren't they risking everyone else's lives by blocking the aisle? It could be made a serious crime - it's easy to see who keeps their bags.
Lock the overheads? Maybe that will cause delay if people who keep trying.
Also, the same people probably take their under-seat bags. I wonder if that causes delay - maybe it takes up space in the aisle, which would seem to be a bottleneck.
Agree, If you're caught running with a bag from a plane (as we've seen on video): zero eligibility for "survivor benefits", $50,000 fine for endangerment, plus 100% liability for any injuries of those behind you.
Does anyone know what the research says? I found a few things, but I don't know if they represent the consensus, etc. Maybe it's in airline regulations somewhere?
For example,
https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Pages/DCA00SS002....
https://trid.trb.org/View/2570651
https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/aer...
https://archive.is/2so4c
Just Joker it - two flights to each destination, but your bags are on the other flight.
Nobody’s risking their life for someone else’s bag.
Oh god, this is what they'll implement eventually. Each passenger will have to put their bag 15 rows down from their seat.
If there is an aircraft evacuation and someone is getting their bag out of the carry-on, the proper response is punching them in the face and throwing them onto the ground so people can step over (or on) them.
With seat pitches so tight these days, the idea that an evacuation can be done by unprepared people in 90 seconds is a pipedream, even before taking into consideration people trying to get their luggage.
> the proper response is punching them in the face and throwing them onto the ground so people can step over (or on) them
The proper response to anyone doing this is jail time and a flight ban. The person with a bag delayed everyone by seconds. The person having an emotional breakdown will cost folks minutes.
Put some kind of deadbolt in there that seals the overhead compartments if the pilot declares an evacuation.
Don't make this an emergency-only thing. It needs to be every flight during takeoff and landing. Otherwise people will be confused why they can't open the bin during evacuation and fight with the attendants, etc.
A more comprehensive set of policy changes:
* All tickets required to include one checked bag in the fare. Less pressure on overhead bin space and less tendency to have one big bag instead of a personal item with important documents.
* Overhead bins lock during takeoff and landing. And it needs to be a sturdy lock, not something that a lunatic can pry open and entice the entire plane into trying to break their stuff out.
* Fine passengers that take luggage during an evacuation. $5k + the value of the item. That makes it so that even people with valuables should leave them behind. And people complaining about their $5200 fine will be mocked for risking everyone's lives for $200.
* Evacuation tests for new seating arrangements must assume that all personal items and accessible overhead items will be taken unless that is rendered impossible by policy or locks.
it doesn't surprise me in the least that Japanese passengers are the most likely to be safe, and USAmericans are the least likely
Is it not simple? Tell the passengers they'll be able to get their bags back during an emergency. Don't just say "leave your bags" - say "leave your bags, you'll get them back later". After drilling into passengers nonstop to never leave their bags unattended is it any surprise passengers don't leave their bags unattended? No, it isn't.
Lives are at stake; it doesn't matter if you get your bags back and that isn't hard to understand. Also, if the plane is on fire, you're probably not getting them back.
> After drilling into passengers nonstop to never leave their bags unattended is it any surprise passengers don't leave their bags unattended?
That's while going to your flight in an airport. I don't think anyone confuses the situations.
> it hasn’t resulted in deaths
Do we need to wait for a tragedy before we do something? Good on the airlines and regulators for recognizing a burgeoning problem and taking action before (hopefully) it leads to unnecessary deaths.
You have something like 45s-90s to get off an airplane and sprint for your life, I've heard. (If anyone has a source, post it). Keep your phone, passport, and your keys in your pockets, and your shoes on your feet during taxi, takeoff, landing. Do not wear flip flops on airlines (you can't run in them) and they provide zero fire protection if you have to run across flaming ground. Everything is replaceable.
I hope it never comes to it, but I would absolutely "move" a person towards the exit, if needed, if they stopped to get their bag, only to save the lives of everyone else.
I think the article says the goal is evacuation in 90 seconds with half the exits available, but that it hasn't been achieved yet.