The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live, and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their Macs.
I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 -- when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five years later I find myself needing a battery and they are unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere. My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of places are starting to require parts be made available for some years after the last sale of the device.
You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I would imagine some of their frames are good for a long minute.
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the last week.
I also own something like three different Framework products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16 spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a good solution for many people.
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
> Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
Yeah it's certainly the single most expensive component, but it's still cheaper than a whole new laptop and, more to the point, less waste than a whole new laptop
Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your upgrades in first at no extra cost.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises. People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and did a few minor upgrades over the years.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
I purchased the first generation of FW13 laptops and got burned. The CMOS/RTC battery drains if not plugged in so the laptop never keeps proper time. I don't think I've ever used a gadget in the last few decades that needs setting the correct date & time every time I turn it on.
Granted, it was their first ever shipping product so I gave them a free pass but I thought they would atleast issue a recall or have a repair program where you send in the laptop to get it fixed. Instead they first denied it was even an issue, later on when enough people complained - they started a battery program where they send you a new ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I was told buying a new mainboard (12th or 13th gen Intel) would fix it, but I decided to just buy a new ZenBook instead.
I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I’m an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought new at release. I can’t replace the memory or storage. But so far I didn’t need to do that.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP, Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get a performant fat client that you can treat like an interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed expendable devices at this point.
All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework, I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a port is not something easily done without putting the Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it over, change the port and then get back to what you were doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports back in the original order.
I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently 25.10) on it.
Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional" laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
Bought a thinkpad L450 10 years ago for about 900 euros. No GPU, which probably increased its lifespan. Replaced its HDD with a SSD.
Apart from thinkpads and maybe framework, I don't think there is any other reliable laptop brand with reasonable prices.
I was talking with my mother about buying jeans pants that would last for a long time, and a 200 euros jeans would have holes on its 6th year or something. Everything is built to last "just long enough".
I was on the market earlier this year snd I really wanted a framework to make sense. But it doesn’t. By my math, I could get two comparable laptops for the price of the framework, and the flexibility to get a second one with newer specs a few years down made it a bad deal for me. But if you aren’t strapped for cash and appreciate the sustainability, then it’s appealing. For me, a slightly greener laptop isn’t a good enough value proposition. Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
What were you comparing against? When I bought my framework it didn't really have a price premium to it relatively to comparable laptops. The main compromise was the thicker chassis and fewer options in terms of things like premium displays.
> Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
lol you and nobody else prefer Intel in a laptop these days. But FYI framework has TB support on their Intel skus and AMD has USB 4 (aka, thunderbolt 3++)
I didn't want to take any risks wrt the egpu support because with an egpu there's already a whole lot of unknowns, so wanted to play it safe with proper TB support. It's a bit of a niche requirement though, so I get that other people may not care. But aside from that I just wanted a basic cheap and light laptop. I got an Acer for £500 on sale with a 2nd gen intel chip. Despite the hate intel gets, their 2nd gen chips are actually really good in terms of battery life.
If I spec a comparable laptop right now on Framework, it's around £1400, even for 1st gen intel. Plus the Acer came with a lovely OLED screen, which the framework doesn't seem to have, as you mentioned.
> Did I do anything productive or meaningful with it? Absolutely not.
> I could finally watch 480 YouTube videos instead of 360
What’s meaningless about this big upgrade in quality?
So with that and the misconceptions like "You can't change the RAM /SSD" (you can, but for a smaller set of laptops than before), the thesis is rather muddy (unless you literally plan a custom printed snacks tray, but even then other laptops have pluggable side bays, so could also plug in there?)
They need to bring trackpoint and WWAN, otherwise they simply are not a competition for Lenovo, as much as I hate it.
I also find their design very boring. I am not asking for a MacBook, but even ThinkPads are way more sexy and you can actually identify with that design. Framework just comes off as another 2015 MacBook Air design knockoff.
Oh, I did magnificent things to my old Toughbook CF-17 / CF-m34. (It ended up as a franken-puter with parts of both.)
First: Remove the internal CDPD wireless modem, remove the internal 56k POTS modem/10/100 Ethernet combo card. Wire the TTL-level UART from the CDPD port over to the RJ11 jack so I could now hack on embedded devices using a simple RJ11-to-bare-wires cable.
Second: The modem/ethernet card removal freed up the MiniPCI slot. Obtain a MiniPCI-to-USB2.0 card (4 downstream ports), and desolder the tall headers (it was meant for embedded machines with more internal space). Then verrrry carefully desolder the machine's external USB1.1 port pins from the mobo, and wire them over to one of the USB2.0 host ports. (Ground stayed, but D+/D-/Vbus moved.) Ta-daa, faster external devices.
Third: Carve out some stiffening ribs from under the palm-rest, shuck a USB-Bluetooth adapter, and mount it in there. The palm-rest being plastic means this puts the radio outside the magnesium shell, but still "internal" from an ergonomic perspective. Sneak some wires past the touchpad opening and solder them to the now-freed-up USB1.1 host port on the mobo, since bluetooth doesn't need 480Mbps.
Fourth: Shuck a 2GB USB flash drive and wire it to another internal USB2.0 port, and run EBoostr, a third-party implementation of Readyboost for WinXP, which gave flash-cache functionality for severely RAM-limited machines like mine (192MB mobo max, sadly!). Tuck it up by the RAM, ironically, because there's plenty of room up there.
Fifth: Shuck a USB2.0-GigE adapter (one with separate magnetics and jack, leave the magnetics but remove the jack because it's too tall, also remove the USB port), and wire it to yet a third internal USB2.0 port. Wire the Ethernet side out to the RJ45 jack freed up by the 10/100 card removal. The speed boost from 100Mbps to 480Mbps (GigE bottlenecked by USB2.0) isn't nothing, but the real benefit is that GigE is Auto-MDIX so I never have to carry a crossover cable, and that's worth it all by itself.
Sixth: Shuck a USB-Wifi dongle, and wire it to the fourth and final internal USB2.0 port. Do the world's hairiest coax splice to the CDPD modem's antenna lead, so the 2.4GHz RF now goes out to the 800MHz-tuned antenna mounted on the screen. Split the antenna open and trim the active elements to 1/3 their length, raising the resonant frequency accordingly. Without access to a VNA at the time, this was as good as I could get, and it worked just fine.
At that point, it was pretty much the perfect laptop, except for the brutally-limited RAM, which eventually forced its obsolescence as browsers bloated without bound. I used it heavily during 2006-07, and to this day I still miss that perfect little keyboard.
I’ve never been brave enough to modify my laptops beyond the one time I sprayed a new (hard) topcoat on an Acer Aspire 5520g… which turned it from a flimsy piece of garbage into a slightly less flimsy piece of garbage.
I feel like running a Thinkpad x201 these days would be a lesson in frustration (for the browser bloat you mentioned) but that was my perfect laptop. If I could do a mainboard swap I would continue to use it.
I’d like to read from someone who has at least 5 years of experience with Framework. New stuffs are always interesting. But I prefer something that can last for 5 plus years. Framework afaik does not have long term guarantees which is a concern.
Framework as a company is only 5 years old, but they've already done several generations of upgrade parts (including webcam, keyboard, display, mainboards, etc...) and have large availability of repair/replacement parts. So unless their parts are uniquely bad in that they randomly fail after 5 years, it seems pretty clear that they are delivering on the long term ownership goals?
I think that's a reasonable point - is there anyone doing "State of My Framework" reports? It's hard to know how true their claim of timelessness through upgrades and repairs is without that.
I think the Framework model (OTC/commodity parts + mainboard) is neat, but what Beelink and others in the MiniPC space are doing is much more useful and compelling for someone who needs a modern, extensible system.
My work doesn't require a lot of local compute (or repairs), so there's nothing really a Framework offers that I'm not already getting on a 5 year old $150 4GB Chromebook.
The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live, and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their Macs.
Exactly - imagine if early MacBook Butterfly keyboard users had the option to simply upgrade their keyboard to a fixed version for $40...
[1]https://www.keyboardsettlement.com/
I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 -- when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five years later I find myself needing a battery and they are unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere. My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of places are starting to require parts be made available for some years after the last sale of the device.
FWIW, I have a 5 year old dell XPS whose battery I could both find an replace easily.
That is one of the advantages of the bigger name brands, replacement parts are generally a lot easier to find.
I was in it to support the company and their goals, but the experience was a little souring.
I assume not just replace, but upgrade, in some cases
You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I would imagine some of their frames are good for a long minute.
I thought Framework was worth a gamble.
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
I can't even recall when I last needed USB-A, literally everything I have uses USB-C (or bluetooth for mouse and keyboard). What do you use it for?
What I have plugged in via USB-A right now: Ethernet adapter; Generic gamepad; Logitech wireless keyboard receiver; Sony waterproof Walkman cradle.
I use USB-A for mouse and keyboard, so I need at least two ports. Both are much better with a cord.
USB-A is our second most popular Expansion Card after USB-C (and before HDMI), so certainly people are using it for something!
It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the last week.
I also own something like three different Framework products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16 spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
I'm not trying to sit in my arm chair and act like I know better, but do you think it's possible people order those just in case?
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
>You can't change the RAM on laptops now. >You can't change the SSD on laptops now.
I literally just brought a laptop 3 weeks ago and I've already upgraded both of those. It's a newer model with an RTX GPU.
I think framework has potential, but it's going to be a decade to see how things pan out. Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
So far what I'm seeing is a laptop brand which charges between 50% and 100% more with strange customer support issues and a limited service network.
If you're thinking about reducing waste , buy a refurbished Thinkpad.
First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a good solution for many people.
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
> Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
We’ve done seven different versions of Mainboard for Framework Laptop 13 already!
* 11th Gen Intel Core
* 12th Gen Intel Core
* Chromebook Edition
* 13th Gen Intel Core
* Ryzen 7040 Series
* Intel Core Ultra Series 1
* Ryzen AI 300 Series
There are a couple of third party boards from DeepComputing too.
The mainboards typically cost as much as a new laptop.
What really excites me is the prospect of 3rd party mainboards and other components. This ecosystem is still just getting started though.
It seems like this is the beta product, I'll wait for the finished one.
They don't?
Ryzen 340 mainboard: $450 https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0005
Ryzen 340 laptop: $1100 https://frame.work/products/laptop13-amd-ai300/configuration...
Yeah it's certainly the single most expensive component, but it's still cheaper than a whole new laptop and, more to the point, less waste than a whole new laptop
No they don't, they start at a few hundred. They'd all be an upgrade for my bought-at-launch £750/800ish Framework 13.
An upgrade like that does mean I need new (DDR5) RAM too though, which tightens the gap a bit (or a byte, at the moment).
7 times, for the Fw13.
I love my thinkpad, wrote up my experience with the Thinkpad T480 last year:
https://maxrozen.com/replacing-my-macbook-m1-with-thinkpad-t...
and a quick buyers guide here:
https://maxrozen.com/getting-your-own-good-enough-laptop-for...
Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your upgrades in first at no extra cost.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
Until recently with the recent madness it was almost always cheaper to buy a base model then upgrade RAM and storage yourself.
In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises. People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and did a few minor upgrades over the years.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
You can buy a new mainboard for a framework…
I purchased the first generation of FW13 laptops and got burned. The CMOS/RTC battery drains if not plugged in so the laptop never keeps proper time. I don't think I've ever used a gadget in the last few decades that needs setting the correct date & time every time I turn it on.
Granted, it was their first ever shipping product so I gave them a free pass but I thought they would atleast issue a recall or have a repair program where you send in the laptop to get it fixed. Instead they first denied it was even an issue, later on when enough people complained - they started a battery program where they send you a new ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I was told buying a new mainboard (12th or 13th gen Intel) would fix it, but I decided to just buy a new ZenBook instead.
I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I’m an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought new at release. I can’t replace the memory or storage. But so far I didn’t need to do that.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP, Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get a performant fat client that you can treat like an interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed expendable devices at this point.
All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
Agreed, though for the sake of ergonomics I hardly use the built-in keyboard and almost always have an external keyboard connected.
I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework, I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
- [0] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T14_Gen_5
you can switch the ports pretty quickly on framework laptops.
In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a port is not something easily done without putting the Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it over, change the port and then get back to what you were doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports back in the original order.
I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently 25.10) on it.
Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
I tried a coworker’s, I was a bit shocked how poor the case is. Everything flexes badly, especially the keyboard.
I was considering one, but definitely not worth it. I can get a ThinkPad for less and it’s much better quality.
Also, something weird:
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
Could you submit a support ticket around the order record issue? We certainly want to determine what happened there: https://frame.work/support/
To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
Can you buy a cheap donor laptop and strip it for parts?
I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/parts-lookup
Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional" laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
Bought a thinkpad L450 10 years ago for about 900 euros. No GPU, which probably increased its lifespan. Replaced its HDD with a SSD.
Apart from thinkpads and maybe framework, I don't think there is any other reliable laptop brand with reasonable prices.
I was talking with my mother about buying jeans pants that would last for a long time, and a 200 euros jeans would have holes on its 6th year or something. Everything is built to last "just long enough".
I was on the market earlier this year snd I really wanted a framework to make sense. But it doesn’t. By my math, I could get two comparable laptops for the price of the framework, and the flexibility to get a second one with newer specs a few years down made it a bad deal for me. But if you aren’t strapped for cash and appreciate the sustainability, then it’s appealing. For me, a slightly greener laptop isn’t a good enough value proposition. Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
What were you comparing against? When I bought my framework it didn't really have a price premium to it relatively to comparable laptops. The main compromise was the thicker chassis and fewer options in terms of things like premium displays.
> Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
lol you and nobody else prefer Intel in a laptop these days. But FYI framework has TB support on their Intel skus and AMD has USB 4 (aka, thunderbolt 3++)
I didn't want to take any risks wrt the egpu support because with an egpu there's already a whole lot of unknowns, so wanted to play it safe with proper TB support. It's a bit of a niche requirement though, so I get that other people may not care. But aside from that I just wanted a basic cheap and light laptop. I got an Acer for £500 on sale with a 2nd gen intel chip. Despite the hate intel gets, their 2nd gen chips are actually really good in terms of battery life. If I spec a comparable laptop right now on Framework, it's around £1400, even for 1st gen intel. Plus the Acer came with a lovely OLED screen, which the framework doesn't seem to have, as you mentioned.
> Did I do anything productive or meaningful with it? Absolutely not.
> I could finally watch 480 YouTube videos instead of 360
What’s meaningless about this big upgrade in quality?
So with that and the misconceptions like "You can't change the RAM /SSD" (you can, but for a smaller set of laptops than before), the thesis is rather muddy (unless you literally plan a custom printed snacks tray, but even then other laptops have pluggable side bays, so could also plug in there?)
They need to bring trackpoint and WWAN, otherwise they simply are not a competition for Lenovo, as much as I hate it.
I also find their design very boring. I am not asking for a MacBook, but even ThinkPads are way more sexy and you can actually identify with that design. Framework just comes off as another 2015 MacBook Air design knockoff.
Oh, I did magnificent things to my old Toughbook CF-17 / CF-m34. (It ended up as a franken-puter with parts of both.)
First: Remove the internal CDPD wireless modem, remove the internal 56k POTS modem/10/100 Ethernet combo card. Wire the TTL-level UART from the CDPD port over to the RJ11 jack so I could now hack on embedded devices using a simple RJ11-to-bare-wires cable.
Second: The modem/ethernet card removal freed up the MiniPCI slot. Obtain a MiniPCI-to-USB2.0 card (4 downstream ports), and desolder the tall headers (it was meant for embedded machines with more internal space). Then verrrry carefully desolder the machine's external USB1.1 port pins from the mobo, and wire them over to one of the USB2.0 host ports. (Ground stayed, but D+/D-/Vbus moved.) Ta-daa, faster external devices.
This is the only bit I seem to have a photo of: https://flickr.com/photos/myself248/255205625/
Third: Carve out some stiffening ribs from under the palm-rest, shuck a USB-Bluetooth adapter, and mount it in there. The palm-rest being plastic means this puts the radio outside the magnesium shell, but still "internal" from an ergonomic perspective. Sneak some wires past the touchpad opening and solder them to the now-freed-up USB1.1 host port on the mobo, since bluetooth doesn't need 480Mbps.
Fourth: Shuck a 2GB USB flash drive and wire it to another internal USB2.0 port, and run EBoostr, a third-party implementation of Readyboost for WinXP, which gave flash-cache functionality for severely RAM-limited machines like mine (192MB mobo max, sadly!). Tuck it up by the RAM, ironically, because there's plenty of room up there.
Fifth: Shuck a USB2.0-GigE adapter (one with separate magnetics and jack, leave the magnetics but remove the jack because it's too tall, also remove the USB port), and wire it to yet a third internal USB2.0 port. Wire the Ethernet side out to the RJ45 jack freed up by the 10/100 card removal. The speed boost from 100Mbps to 480Mbps (GigE bottlenecked by USB2.0) isn't nothing, but the real benefit is that GigE is Auto-MDIX so I never have to carry a crossover cable, and that's worth it all by itself.
Sixth: Shuck a USB-Wifi dongle, and wire it to the fourth and final internal USB2.0 port. Do the world's hairiest coax splice to the CDPD modem's antenna lead, so the 2.4GHz RF now goes out to the 800MHz-tuned antenna mounted on the screen. Split the antenna open and trim the active elements to 1/3 their length, raising the resonant frequency accordingly. Without access to a VNA at the time, this was as good as I could get, and it worked just fine.
At that point, it was pretty much the perfect laptop, except for the brutally-limited RAM, which eventually forced its obsolescence as browsers bloated without bound. I used it heavily during 2006-07, and to this day I still miss that perfect little keyboard.
I love all of this.
I’ve never been brave enough to modify my laptops beyond the one time I sprayed a new (hard) topcoat on an Acer Aspire 5520g… which turned it from a flimsy piece of garbage into a slightly less flimsy piece of garbage.
I feel like running a Thinkpad x201 these days would be a lesson in frustration (for the browser bloat you mentioned) but that was my perfect laptop. If I could do a mainboard swap I would continue to use it.
I’d like to read from someone who has at least 5 years of experience with Framework. New stuffs are always interesting. But I prefer something that can last for 5 plus years. Framework afaik does not have long term guarantees which is a concern.
Framework as a company is only 5 years old, but they've already done several generations of upgrade parts (including webcam, keyboard, display, mainboards, etc...) and have large availability of repair/replacement parts. So unless their parts are uniquely bad in that they randomly fail after 5 years, it seems pretty clear that they are delivering on the long term ownership goals?
I think that's a reasonable point - is there anyone doing "State of My Framework" reports? It's hard to know how true their claim of timelessness through upgrades and repairs is without that.
Relevant to "I'm returning my Framework Laptop" from a day or two ago (500+ comments):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46375174
I think the Framework model (OTC/commodity parts + mainboard) is neat, but what Beelink and others in the MiniPC space are doing is much more useful and compelling for someone who needs a modern, extensible system.
My work doesn't require a lot of local compute (or repairs), so there's nothing really a Framework offers that I'm not already getting on a 5 year old $150 4GB Chromebook.